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 Post subject: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:54 am 
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I have managed to piece together an elusive British Navy uniform. The jumper and broadfall trousers have no markings, so I can not be sure of the vintage. The cap has a tally from a ship that served until 1920, so it could be from WWI or it could have had the tally changed. It came in a tin container with dicky and scarf shown on the mannequin. The scarf is a bit ratty on the ends, and I need to iron it and fold it the other way to clean it up. A couple of small ditty bags also came with the cap, all named to the same sailor. The material of the cap looks right for the time, and is different than the WWII vintage caps that I have seen. This is an important part of the WWI conflict, and until I can find a better example, it will serve for public display to help educate people about the sacrifices all service men and women.
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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:24 am 
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Very nice! Well presented also :thumb up:


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Looks good.


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:53 pm 
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Gus, that is outstanding! You are also too modest about the ship. The HMS Europa took part in the Dardanelles Campaign, for which she received a battle honour.


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Peter_Suciu wrote:
Gus, that is outstanding! You are also too modest about the ship. The HMS Europa took part in the Dardanelles Campaign, for which she received a battle honour.

The HMS Europa also served in some of the eqarl battles and may have been in the same waters as the SMS Lothringen, which is the tally on my Kaisersliche Marine uniform.

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Excellent Gus, what type of vessel was the Europa?

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:36 am 
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The HMS Europa was a Diadem-class cruiser, designed to protect trade. It had a wooden hull and was built at the beginning of the 1900s.

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:46 am 
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I think that is an 1840-1850's Tropical pattern .... used until the early 20th century

I'm guessing the HMS Europa 1897 - 1920

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Europa

Look inside the cap, sometimes has a clue to its age, eg : maker or crown type.


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:15 am 
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Stirnpanzer wrote:
I think that is an 1840-1850's Tropical pattern .... used until the early 20th century

I'm guessing the HMS Europa 1897 - 1920

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Europa

Look inside the cap, sometimes has a clue to its age, eg : maker or crown type.


No marking anywhere, the material is different than the WWII and later caps I have seen.
Best
Gus

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:52 pm 
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Great find!

Thanks for sharing :D

Best regards,

Edwin


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:56 pm 
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Very nice, Gus, but you should have his shoes polished!..


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:48 pm 
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911car wrote:
Very nice, Gus, but you should have his shoes polished!..
The only reason they are black is because he has been shoveling coal.

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Gustaf wrote:
911car wrote:
Very nice, Gus, but you should have his shoes polished!..
The only reason they are black is because he has been shoveling coal.


But he managed to keep his pants immaculate...
Seriously: I thought these marine suits came with black shiny shoes, am I wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:56 pm 
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911car wrote:
Gustaf wrote:
911car wrote:
Very nice, Gus, but you should have his shoes polished!..
The only reason they are black is because he has been shoveling coal.


But he managed to keep his pants immaculate...
Seriously: I thought these marine suits came with black shiny shoes, am I wrong?

This one cam bare foot, I figured unpolished boots would be an upgrade, but I thik I might put a bit of wax on them, as I once got confined to quaters for a week because I posted a photo of my French Poilu with an untied show lace.

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:32 pm 
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I was looking through the list of "other items" from the seller of the cap, they had another cap, a blue one, that was in the same tin. It has an HMS Vivid tally, there are a number of ships that had that name, but the most common use was fo a training station that was open until 1914. A check of British service records indicates the wearer was born in 1893, this would give a correct time frame for training at Portsmouth and serving on the HMS Europa. I was not able to get more information on actual service with out jumping through hoops, so I am looking at other sources for more information. But it looks like I may have acquired an actual WWI vintage grouping. I will post more photos as the items arrive.

Now another question on the insignia and rank on the jumper. The fouled anchor is "Leading Seaman" do the chevrons make him second class? Also, the blue strip surely designates him as serving on the port side of the ship, but I can not find out the meaning of blue, in the US navy, red was a fireman, white served on the deck, but I have not found any reference on blue (also used in the US Navy) I am making the unwise assumptions that Royal meanings may be similar. Bear in mind that this jumper is not part of H. V. Donald's grouping.

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Chevrons are for good conduct.


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Stirnpanzer wrote:
Chevrons are for good conduct.
Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:57 am 
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Gus,

This may help http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... _Regs.html.

I haven't had time to study it but you might get some answers.

Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Hey Patrick,
that is an outstanding reference, thanks. I have not been able to find any thing on the blue stripe above the rating badge, but this does tell me he was a Second Class Petty Officer, and I have the Neck handkerchief tied wrong (I knew that) and it will require a bit more study to get right. I need to find a knife and lanyard and I might have the right boots on the way from England.
Thanks again
Gus

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:01 am 
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I have discovered that in the US navy, the blue strip is for Seaman's Branch, it is white on blue jumpers and blue on white jumpers. On the left sleeve would indicate a he worked on the port side of the ship. I am unsure if it has the same meaning in the Royal Navy but I suspect it does.

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:10 am 
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Hi Gus,

I've been trying to find out more about this, but with no success so far. However, I've been told that the German Navy 'had different stripes on their sleeves to show what watch they belonged to', which fits with US practice, so it could well be that the RN did this. However, it seems very strange that when the Dress Regulations were so prescriptive this wouldn't have been covered.I've been looking for any later,early 20th century,Regulations to see what that say but haven't found any yet.

I'll let you know if I come up with anything -I like a research challenge!

Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:31 am 
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Gus,

Found this - post no 3 onwards.
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/s ... php?t=4294

Somebody posted an old photo, which he thought was late 19th /early 20th century ( you have to join the forum to access the photo- haven't been able to look at it so far) and asked about the horizontal stripe.

I've combined two responses from the same person:
"Its a 'watch stripe' denoting he is in Port Watch, the Photo is pre 1897.Watch Stripes—To be half inch blue jean and red braid respectively; upon the outer part of the sleeve, at the junction of the sleeve and the body, 12 inches in length; blue on white frocks and jumpers, red on blue frocks and jumpers. Starboard watch to wear stripes on the right arm, port watch on the left"

He didn't give his source, but on the basis that the watch stripe was not in the 1897 Regs I found the 1890 Regs and there it is -

91. Watch Stripes—To be half inch blue jean and red braid respectively; upon the outer part of the sleeve, at the junction of the sleeve and the body, 12 inches in length; blue on white frocks and jumpers, red on blue frocks and jumpers. Starboard watch to wear stripes on the right arm, port watch on the left.

(a.) these stripes to be hemmed onto a foundation of cloth or drill; the edges of which are to be quite plain, and not to project more than one-sixteenth of an inch.

We also know now that your white frock is pre 1897. Sorry if that gives you a problem for your WW1 display. Link to 1890 Regs http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Uniform/189 ... _Regs.html

Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:29 am 
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Thanks Patrick,
I think that this watch stripe is different enough to suspect it might be later, to be honest, I would rather have a pre 1897 than a post 1919 item. The stripe on mine is not at the junction of the sleeve and body of the jumper but just above the rating patch. So things are a bit different in the US Navy, as red is worn on both whites and blues, but it for a fireman (I had assumed that was a stoker as that is what they are called on the railroad, but think that assumption is wrong) In the US Navy, a white watch stripe is worn on the blues and a blue one on the whites.
Thanks again, I like to know as much about the uniforms I collect or I would just be a hoarder rather than a collector. This forum has shown again what outstanding members we have.
Best
Gus

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:40 am 
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Gus

Thanks for the kind words.Happy to help.As I said, I like a research challenge.

I finally got access to the photo on the Naval Ships Forum, which I've attached below. Acknowledgements to the forum and the photo owner.Trust there are no issues of copyright etc!

The watch stripe on this guy's uniform appears to me to be in the same place as the stripe on yours.

Image

I've looked at a number of WW1 photos of British sailors and haven't seen a similar stripe so far.

I have to say that naval history and naval items are not really my thing, although I do know that my great-uncle,Russell Stobo, an engineer on a merchant ship, the Manchester Trader, won the Distinguished Service Cross, along with his captain, when they fought the U65 in the Mediterranean in June 1917.Not surprisingly, the U-Boat won http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... r-and-u65/
Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Hey Patrick,
That is outstanding, I just got my authorization for that forum too, but our wbernet has been poor and I was not even able to get on here. You are right, that is exactly the watch stripe on my uniform. Thank you very much
I also got the neck scarf tied correctly and a pair of deck shoes coming from Blighty soon so I will post an upgraded photo soon.

Gus

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Gus,

Look forward to seeing the next photo. Hope his new shoes will be clean,otherwise Bruno will be on your back again!

How's the flooding?


Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Hey Patrick, yes the boots are clean and polished. The rain has stopped, but we have 4 inches of new snow and expect 3 to 6 more. the wind is supposed to blow this afternoon so that could be a problem. It is possible we might have another round of flooding in another week or two, but we need the water.
Thanks again for the great help with this project.
Gus

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Hi Gus,

Water is one thing we're not short of in Scotland!

Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Here is an update photo, with the shoes not shown as the deck boots have not arrived yet.
Image

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 Post subject: Re: British Navy uniform
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:24 pm 
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The HMS Vivid cap arrived, it was in the tin with the HMS Europa, and could have easily been from the same sailor as the records show he was born in 1893 and could have trained at the HMS Vivid Training Station before it was closed in 1914 and then served on the HMS Europa. I am sure most sailors saved all their cap tallies as they moved to a new posting. The first photo shows all my blue caps, and the second shows the white caps. The US Navy caps are the only caps that are named to the same sailor as the uniform.
Image
Image

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