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 Post subject: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:39 pm 
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Hello

Would anybody know what this is ???

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Thanks

JM


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:57 pm 
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WOW. The helmet resembles a Persian helmet from the Qajar period, but the Raupe looks French. The lion is similar to the one used by the British Inniskilling Dragoons but it was never mounted that low.

I can venture a guess: The helmet was Persian and captured by the French and refitted for their purposes. After that it was again retaken by the British and was given to the U.S. where it was refitted for the American Kennel Club???

In other words --- not a clue.

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:51 pm 
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One point to remember is that Qajar helmet - like the Egyptian Khedive era helmets and cuirass - were made in France. I would venture it could be a helmet made in France for export to another country. The lion was the symbol of the Qajar Dynasty of Persia, so that is a distinct possibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:00 pm 
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This is a Persian helmet from the 12 century. Maybe the other one was meant to evoke a similar style:

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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Truly a unique ugly beast .

:o :o :o


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:27 am 
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Thanks for your comments
I tend to believe that this helmet is a genuine one, not a theatrical creation.
Persian maybe...

Brgds

JM


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:37 pm 
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michmuch wrote:
Thanks for your comments
I tend to believe that this helmet is a genuine one, not a theatrical creation.
Persian maybe...

Brgds

JM


do you have any shots of the back/top crest, as this looks to have held a horse tail, as well the base/rim and inside, are there holes along the base?


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:51 am 
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ukturkcollector wrote:
michmuch wrote:
Thanks for your comments
I tend to believe that this helmet is a genuine one, not a theatrical creation.
Persian maybe...

Brgds

JM


do you have any shots of the back/top crest, as this looks to have held a horse tail, as well the base/rim and inside, are there holes along the base?


Looking at the photo you have, it looks like there are some holes along the bottom rim. This looks to be the metal skull/top of an helmet that was attached to a body made from leather, supporting a fur or cloth turban.
There was likely a horse tail hanging from the crest - is there a roll-bar attachment there?
Overall, suggest Indian, either pre-mutiny, or post Raj palace guards company.


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:47 am 
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Hello
This helmet does not belong to me
It was offered for sale on the internet but I can't find the link anymore, sorry
But otherwise yes, it was clearly meant to receive a tail in French style, and probably had a lower leather band attached to it.
Brgds
JM


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:49 am 
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I finally found it, here it is

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/51 ... a-lion-and


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:48 pm 
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michmuch wrote:


I read the advertisement and I feel confident that I can say that this is not from the Napoleonic Wars.
I believe that the early Indian idea merits investigation. That could be entirely possible.

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Based on the photos on the auction site I see a French design and I do think it was for export to Persia during the Qajar Dynasty. The shape is similar to the Qajar helmet I own and the lion remains and important motif for Persia. I'm not seeing an Indian connection with this helmet.


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:47 pm 
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Peter_Suciu wrote:
Based on the photos on the auction site I see a French design and I do think it was for export to Persia during the Qajar Dynasty. The shape is similar to the Qajar helmet I own and the lion remains and important motif for Persia. I'm not seeing an Indian connection with this helmet.


The main issue is what is the origin of the lion; if it was Qajar/Persian, I would expect it to include the setting sun/face, and more likely as a fount plate, with lion holding a sword.

Thanks, to SkipperJohn for finding the pictures. Looking as these you can clearly see the internal support struts for the crest, and the roll-bar to allow the horse tail mane to be strapped on - which is a very old way of doing this - more likely seen on Napoleonic period helmets. As is the use of metal skull, attached to a full leather body: have seen this method of construction on early Napoleonic French cuirasses' helmets.

This does not immediately point to Napoleonic period, as it only means 'was constructed in an old fashioned style'. As well, from what I gave seen of French imported helmets (Egypt. Turkey, Persian - 1840-80), these tend to be current pattern heavy cavalry ones that have had major alterations done, so would have expected the lower body to have been retained, and covered with a turban.

I still think this has been made in India, based on British models; for instance, a good comparison wound be the British P-1834 Inniskilling Dragoons Gilt Cavalry Helmet for officers.


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:49 pm 
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The problem is so much seems to be missing. I don't think based on the photos that this had a neck curtain - like the Indo-Persian helmets, but it is possible.

I wonder if we're thinking the wrong region with India/Persia. Could this be French for say Indo-China, Siam or a similar French client state?


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Peter_Suciu wrote:
The problem is so much seems to be missing. I don't think based on the photos that this had a neck curtain - like the Indo-Persian helmets, but it is possible.

I wonder if we're thinking the wrong region with India/Persia. Could this be French for say Indo-China, Siam or a similar French client state?


The holes could be for a mail neck curtain; however, the type of helmet construction I have commenting on, is that the skull portion of the helmet is metal, but the rest (lower portion) is actually constructed from leather. For example, early versions of the Napoleonic French cuirasses' helmet for example, have an upper steel skull, which supports the brass crest. this was strapped to the fur turban section, which commonly included opening at the back to allow for adjustment to size, the leather lower body, also carried the internal lining, as well as supported the front peak. This method of construction was later replaced in later version with all metal body.


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Helmet sold for 900 euros, so either someone knew what it was or took a huge chance.

I think the idea that it was over a leather/fur hat is probably correct. Looking at the photos from the auction site I see how the two holes on each side could line up with a cockade or rosette too. I've gone through dozens of books and I can't find anything close.

Of course this could be some one off piece, a fantasy piece or something from a fraternal group too!


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 Post subject: Re: Helmet with dog / lion crest
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Hello

Rechecking the pictures, I noticed that the "lion" seems to have some ciseled wings. In which case it would be some kind of mystical beast, TBD...

JM


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