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 Post subject: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:35 am 
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During the War of the Fourth Coalition, under the hands of the French army and Napoleon Bonaparte, the Prussian Army was decisively beaten in 1806 at the battles of Saalfeld, Jena, and Auerstedt. Prussia submitted to major territorial losses, was made to reduce its army to just 42,000 men, and to sign an alliance with France in the Treaty of Tilsit. Prussia was forced to reduce its number of Kurassier regiments from 13 down to only four. Many of the remaining Prussian Army units escaped to the east and began an alliance with Russia rather than submitting to French rule. During this time the Prussian Army underwent a complete reform, including tactics, strategies, weapons, and uniforms. Until 1807 Prussian Kurassiers wore a tricorn hat with an iron cap, called a casquet, underneath. Prussian Kurassiers did not wear a cuirass after1790 by order of Frederick William II, so even the name Kurassier was somewhat of a misnomer. Prussian Kurassiers did not use the cuirass again until 1814. In 1809 Prussian Kurassiers adopted a helmet modeled after the Russian version worn since 1803. This was the first Prussian Kurassier helmet, Model 1809:

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The shell of this helmet is made of boiled leather and is extremely thick. The body of the helmet is tarred, probably with birch tar. One reference refers to this as being lacquered with birch tar. This made the helmet virtually waterproof and rendered it highly resistant to insects and mold. There are rolled leather reinforcements, two on each side, that are stitched to the helmet shell with linen thread that assist in keeping the helmets shape.

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The front visor is sewn to the shell and then folded over the stitches. The rear neck guard is sewn on in a fashion similar to that of a Pickelhaube.

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The helmet shell is sewn up the back leaving the flaps of leather on the outside to be made into the comb, or Raupe.

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The front plate is made of gilded brass and the Adler Wappen is stamped into it. The front plate is held on with two brass wire loops at the bottom and one screw fastener at the top. This top fastener also secures the Raupe support to the helmet. It is tightened with a strange, thick brass, “H” shaped nut. The brass is a yellow gold color and is likely a close derivative of Prince Rupert’s metal. Prince Rupert’s metal was developed by Prince Rupert of the Rhein (1619-1682), and was yellow in color, cold malleable, extremely tarnish resistant, and was often used in jewelry to simulate gold. Actually this metal was a mistake. Prince Rupert was trying to develop a stronger metal for naval cannon at the time.

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This helmet is 16” tall at its tallest point and is extremely heavy. Simply giving a measurement does not begin to describe how massive this helmet really is. To accurately show this helmets sheer mass, a photo is provided with the Model 1809 sitting next to the familiar Prussian Model 1895. Both of these helmets fit the same size head.

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The liner of this helmet is made of thick, padded leather, with a linen inner liner sewn to it. The linen liner would have had a drawstring to tighten it around the wearers head. The underside of the rear neck guard is lined with a treated cloth or leather veneer and is dyed black. The front visor underside is the same as the rear only the color is green. This color coding of black in the rear and green in the front will be a tradition on all enlisted Kurassier and Jager zu Pferde helmets until their demise in 1916.

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The Raupe is made of horsehair and is sewn between the leather flaps on the helmet shell. The horsehair is braided and sewn together at the base. It is then sewn in with linen thread. It appears that the linen thread has been tarred.

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The tail of the horsehair raupe is bunched up and sewn together at the base of the helmet shell in the rear. The neck guard has a slot where the leather from the Raupe passes through.

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The 75mm Kokarde is made of silk and is colored in standard Prussian colors, black-white-black. Silk is a highly resilient material which can last hundreds of years unless it had been weighted. In the 1840’s manufacturers began weighting silk with sugars and metallic salts to increase profits. It was perfectly legal but the silk material was weakened by it. Weighted silks can dry out, shred, and they do not hold dyes well. Weighted silks also have a tendency to glow under black light, raw silks do not. This Kokarde does not glow under black light.

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The rosettes have a screw fastener and are held in place with iron nuts about ½” square. The studs holding the front visor trim in place have bent pins. The front visor trim is 11mm wide. The chinscales are flat and measure 39mm at their widest point. The chinscales were flat on all models until a military directive ordered that they be changed to convex, between 1816 and 1818. There is no latch on the end of the chinscales to attach them when the chinstrap is not being worn. Instead the chinstrap itself has a small brass buckle that holds the chinstrap linked when resting on the visor. I seriously doubt that this helmet could be worn without the use of a chinstrap. After looking through what seems like thousands of period paintings, it appears that officers preferred to wear the tricorn hat through most of the Napoleonic Wars.

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The helmet is reinforced on the side with a folded up leather earpiece. This earpiece allowed free movement of the chinscales and kept them from rubbing on the helmet shell. These earpieces would evolve into the M91 lug support on future Pickelhauben.

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This helmet could have been worn in the battles of Bautzen, Leibertwolkwitz, Leipzig, etc.
The Kurassier regiments using this helmet were:

No 1: Silesian Kurassier Regiment
No 2: East Prussian Kurassier Regiment
No 3: Brandenburg Kurassier Regiment
No 4: Magdeburg Kurassier Regiment

The Garde Kurassiers wore this helmet but the front plate bore the Garde Star instead of the Adler.

Starting in 1813 the Prussian armed forces put to rest any doubts as to their military prowess. They came back from the defeat in 1806 --- and they came back with a vengeance.

This helmet was modified several times over the years and went out of service in 1842 as the Model 1833. It was replaced in 1842-1843 by the metal Kurassierhelm and the Pickelhaube.

I know this helmet is beyond the normal timeline generally discussed in this forum; however, my hope is that it may provide additional historical perspective regarding the development of the Pickelhaube.

John :)


Last edited by SkipperJohn on Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:00 am 
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wow

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:15 am 
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What a helmet! Excellent post Skipper John. =D>

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:06 am 
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joerookery wrote:
wow


No kidding. Holy Nutcracker that is astounding. Going to have to take my time and read through this a few more times to absorb it.

Good for you John :thumbright:

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:05 pm 
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My goodness....this is such a fine helmet ! Fantastic condition after 200+ years.
Great discription ! Thank you !
Francis


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:50 pm 
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I first became aware of this connection between the early kurassier helmet and the pickelhaube when I read John Mollo's "Military Fashion" years ago but this is far more detailed and a fascinating analysis update. I was unaware of the exact context of the influences of the Russians on Prussian military fashion at this time. Later of course there is debate as to who came up with the pickelhaube in the first place but this shows the Russian and Prussian design dialog right from the start, directly contrary to the French neo-classical curiassiers. What a fantastic helmet with a fine plate. The best condition I have ever seen and I keep a digital file of these as the interest me a lot. Thank you very much for the information and all the details. I was planning to build an 1842 pickelhaube someday and its always wise to go back and look at what they are thinking when they came up with the concept in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:40 am 
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John ;
Great helmet !

It seems years ago that I had one similar to yours
but I do not remember the kokard being that nice .
Is that an officers helmet ?
This is earlier than I collect , but I sure do like your helmet .
When I started to collect about 1970
there were 2 advanced collectors in Chicago .
Phil N. and Hermann W.
both ended up collecting only Prussian helmets .
Hermann passed away at an early age .
Phil sold his collection
and that is where my helmet came from
because of the time frame , I later sold mine .
I hope that I can find photos of it
but during that time I might have been
shooting 35 mm color slides .

Thanks for the great photos
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:04 pm 
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Nacuaa wrote:
What a fantastic helmet with a fine plate. The best condition I have ever seen and I keep a digital file of these as the interest me a lot.


All of the photos in my post are in photobucket. If you want more permanent photos, and additional photos that I didn't use, just PM me your personal e-mail and I'll send them to you.
If you ever write a book on this subject let me know where to buy it --- autographed copy, of course!

John :D


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:07 pm 
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Thank you everybody for your kind commentary. The last time I received this much praise I was allowed to eat Christmas dinner at the big boy table!!

John :D


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:43 pm 
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KAGGR#1 wrote:
John ;

Is that an officers helmet ?

Steve


No, this is an enlisted man's helmet. My research indicates (and take this with a grain of salt) that officers tended to continue to wear the tricorn hat throughout much of the Napoleonic Wars. I searched through period paintings on the internet and in books, and when officers were shown, they were wearing a tricorn hat while the troops were wearing this helmet. There are photos in Jan K. Kube's book, Militaria, copyright 1990, showing the enlisted Model 1809 on page 50, figure 46, and the officer version (Model 1830-1842) on page 25, figure 62. Note the flat chinscales on the enlisted version and the two piece front plate on the officers version. Kube does refer to an officers M1808 on page 25, but the version shown is 1820.

The research into this was somewhat daunting. The earliest version of an officer helmet that I found on the internet was in a museum, in France I believe, and it was dated 1820.

John :D


Last edited by SkipperJohn on Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:39 pm 
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I am not gonna say this or that only that it is in outstanding condition for beeing that old
Well, its the first time to see one of these
i did not even know that they where so od in there shape

That is a great helmet
Jonas


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:07 pm 
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kaiser wrote:
I am not gonna say this or that only that it is in outstanding condition for being that old

That is a great helmet
Jonas


It is that old. I believe that it was actually made in 1809. I did not put this in the original post because I have not verified it through multiple sources, but there is one source that says that the original Model 1809 helmet (they call it a Model 1808) had a horsehair plume that was worn on parade. It says that the plume was worn only on parade until 1810 after which it was worn at all times. The Raupe is obviously not removable, but on the reverse side of the Raupe support on this helmet there is a brass loop. This loop is part of the support and appears to serve no function whatsoever. It could be the attachment for a separate horsehair plume which would hang down in the front to about the midpoint of the Adler. In 1810 and later models there is no "parade plume" per se. It seems that there was just more horsehair sewn in at the front of the Raupe. I saw a later version of this helmet dismantled once and there was no brass loop and just longer hair in the front. Period paintings show both long and short hair versions.

Image

The source stating this is not my favorite, and more often than not I don't trust them, but it does provide an idea.
If it is true, the likelihood that I will ever find an original parade plume is non-existent.
If I did find one, that would be the day that I would buy my first lottery ticket!

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:31 am 
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I think you already won a lottery just by getting your hands on this helmet
where in the world will yo ever find a second one as great as yourse
You can make a time line of diffrent models starting with your helmet and al the way to the m15
That would be a train of changes they made over al those years

Jonas


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Wow beautiful historical helmet thanks for sharing and for the history lesson about this helmet :thumb up:


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:44 am 
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Hello,

a really good report . Thank you very much.

This piece may I add . This helmet was decades in a museum , which I bought this museum for few years ago .

The helmet is worn however clear and no longer completely .The helmet has inside a carrier - Ettiket . Since it was located just not sure if it is an officer or a enlisted rank , a false carrier was determined !

It is correct that it is a enlisted helmet .

But I have this helmet sold a few years ago because he did not fit into my collection . The condition was also not so good.

Gruß Dragoner08


Attachments:
Kürassierhelm 1806 005.JPG
Kürassierhelm 1806 005.JPG [ 126.59 KiB | Viewed 6047 times ]
Kürassierhelm 1806 001.JPG
Kürassierhelm 1806 001.JPG [ 181.42 KiB | Viewed 6047 times ]
Kürassierhelm 1806 002.JPG
Kürassierhelm 1806 002.JPG [ 184.44 KiB | Viewed 6047 times ]
Kürassierhelm 1806 004.JPG
Kürassierhelm 1806 004.JPG [ 190.85 KiB | Viewed 6047 times ]
Kürassierhelm 1806 005.JPG
Kürassierhelm 1806 005.JPG [ 126.59 KiB | Viewed 6047 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:54 am 
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That is a nice helmet. There are not many of those around anymore. My helmet was in a museum as well, in Baden-Wuerttemberg. I notice that the one you posted has the longer hair in the front. When you mentioned a "carrier" I assume you were talking about the "plume attachment"? I have given some thought to making a horsehair plume for mine. All I would need to do is tie some horsehair with thread and stick it in the loop. I live in Arizona so getting horsehair is absolutely no problem --- but where will I find a horse that's 206 years old!

John :D


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:26 pm 
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Gunnar ;
Thanks for the photos
Very nice old helmet .

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:34 pm 
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How about a 160 year old horse?http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2983


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:05 pm 
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aicusv wrote:
How about a 160 year old horse?http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2983



That's a little "over the top".

John :o


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:34 pm 
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Hello John ;
I don't know if you get Kube or not .
I was about to file away his 30 April 2016
# 130 auction
then I noticed on the inside back cover
Lot 1007
which he said is Russian ensemble for line- Kurassiere
from 1835 .
I thought that you might like to see it .
This has the long hair in front like the photos
of Gunnar .
Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:36 pm 
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Starting bid was 3000 Euro
but I do not have a results sheet
and will not post results on line
only un-sold lot numbers
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:58 pm 
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KAGGR#1 wrote:
he said is Russian ensemble for line- Kurassiere
from 1835 .


That is a good looking set. Notice how the horsehair looks like a straight plume hanging down in the front. That was permanent on the Russian model, but according to Osprey my helmet would have had a detachable one that hung the same way for parades only. Since that is the only place that I can find any mention of a parade plume I am skeptical. Also notice that the Russian model is more rounded at the dome. This is a later issue helmet, but the Prussian model retained the higher dome throughout. On both Prussian and Russian models the leather on the Raupe got taller and the horsehair got shorter as time went on.

One interesting historical note: The cuirass in your photo would have been exactly the same for the Prussians in 1814. The Prussian Kurassiers did not wear a cuirass from 1790 to 1814. In 1814 the Russians provided the Prussian Kurassiers with a black cuirass during the War of the Sixth Coalition.

Thanks for the photos and the input!

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:49 am 
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Hello John,

we first thought it would be an officer's helmet . In the helmet is a carrier - label . There is the name Mutius . We assumed it would be to this carrier . That's not right !

Gruß Gunnar


Attachments:
Innenhelm 007.JPG
Innenhelm 007.JPG [ 156.73 KiB | Viewed 5965 times ]
Oberst Carl von Mutius Offizierkasino_Breslau_Zedlitz.jpg
Oberst Carl von Mutius Offizierkasino_Breslau_Zedlitz.jpg [ 105.09 KiB | Viewed 5965 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:58 am 
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Hello Steve,

The ensemble at Kube has only 4000 , - Euro brought . Plus fees are only about 5000,- Euro ! That´s not much.

Gruß Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:45 am 
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That's cheap. Yes, the Russians made about ten times as many of these as the Prussians, but still they don't show up every day.

Can I use the photo/picture of Herr Mutius? Notice his front plate consists of two pieces, the Adler and the brass plate are separate.

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:20 pm 
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Hello John,

yes you can use the picture .

Yes this is an officer's helmet of Mutius in the photo .

Greeting Gunnar


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:17 pm 
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A wonderfull helmet. I search myself for such one.
Officers helmet or enlisted man's helmet?
A gilded front plate and the Kokarde made of silk, instead of wool, are the things make the difference. So your helmet and Dragoner08`s also, are officers helmets.
Something to these helmets in german:
Der Kürassierhelm von 1808
Eine Allerhöchste-Kabinetts-Order vom 23. Oktober 1808 bestimmte für die preußischen Kürassiere einen schwarz lackierten Lederhelm nach dem Muster der russischen Kürassiere. Die Ausrüstung der Regimenter begann erst 1809. Das Vorderblech und die Beschläge aus Messing, für Offiziere vergoldet. Am Vorderblech war für die Linienregimenter ein getriebener preußischer Adler und für die Garde ein Stern. Der Stern der Offiziere war versilbert mit emailliertem Mittelteil. An der linken Seite die Kokarde schwarz und weiß, für Mannschaften aus Wolle und für Offiziere aus Seide. Zur Parade ein Kamm von schwarzem Roßhaar. Der Roßhaarkamm wurde mit AKO vom 22.Januar 1810 zu jedem Dienst befohlen. Mit diesem Befehl wurde auch eine flache Schuppenkette statt des ledernen Sturmriemens befohlen. Ein mündlicher Befehl des Königs Anfang April 1814 bestimmte für Trompeter einen roten Kamm. Ab 1815 wurden gewölbte Schuppenketten getragen. Ab den 1820-Jahren wurden Helme mit einem aufgelegten Adler bzw. Gardestern ausgegeben. Der Helmkopf wurde im Laufe der Jahre kleiner und der Lederkamm größer. Das führte zu einer ungünstigen Gewichtsverteilung und der Helm rutschte leicht vom Kopf. Bei Geländeübungen mussten Helmsammler abkommandiert werden. Der Helm wurde immer mehr im Nacken getragen und deshalb der Vorderschirm steiler als bei der Einführung. Eine Kriegsministerielle Verordnung vom 10.Februar 1833 befahl eine schwarzlackierte Drahtklammer zum Stützen des Roßhaarkammes.
Das Kürassier-Regiment Kaiser Nikolaus von Rußland Nr.6 erhielt am 3. Juni 1835 als Geschenk des Zaren 613 Helme. Die Fertigung dieses Helmes unterscheidet sich in kleineren Details von den preußischen Kürassierhelmen, vor allem ist der preußische Adler kleiner und der Helm etwas höher. Die Garnitur russischer Helme wurde in der Regel nur bei größeren Übungen in Berlin getragen.
Durch AKO vom 22.November 1843 wurde der Lederhelm durch ein neues Modell aus Metall ersetzt.


Attachments:
Helm_-_1809_und_1820_Archiv_fr_Waffen-_und_Uniformkunde_001.jpg
Helm_-_1809_und_1820_Archiv_fr_Waffen-_und_Uniformkunde_001.jpg [ 409.66 KiB | Viewed 5860 times ]
Helm_-_1809_und_1820_Archiv_fr_Waffen-_und_Uniformkunde.jpg
Helm_-_1809_und_1820_Archiv_fr_Waffen-_und_Uniformkunde.jpg [ 403.26 KiB | Viewed 5860 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:06 pm 
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Vielen Dank!

This is the second source that provides information on a Parade plume being worn only for parades until 1810. You have now peaked my curiosity about whether this is an enlisted helmet or not. I have two sources that say all Kokarden were silk until about 1813, so this is the first source I've seen that says officer Kokarden were silk and enlisted were wool. I also have differing sources now on whether or not officers wore a one piece, stamped, Wappen or if theirs were always two piece.

I researched paintings of the period like this one, allegedly of Prussian and French Cuirassiers. Notice the "Prussians" are wearing a cuirass so this would have to be after 1813. Also uniform details are at the whim of the artist.

Image

I also have a photo of this helmet in Jan K. Kube's book, Militaria, Copyright 1990, and it is called an enlisted helmet.

Image

I found it extremely interesting that your article mentioned "Helmet Collectors" that would pick up the helmets in the field because they kept falling off. I can see this happening. This helmet is a little top heavy.

The research never ends!

John :?


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:28 pm 
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So John ;
Do you live in Texas ?

Years ago there was a collector in Germany
who only collected Kurassiere helmets and related items
I can say his name ; but no longer remember how to spell it .
He was a friend of Jarl Hartze of Stockholm , Sweden .
When the collector passed away
his widow told Jarl to come and select any one helmet
that he wanted . That is what her husband had asked her to do .

Jarl had taken 35mm color slides of this collection
and he made me a duplicate set
I need to get these out and see about
making photos from the slides
I would like to re-look at this collection
after all these years to see what early helmets were there .

Also the collection was placed with Jan Kube for sale .
This is how Kube got his "jump start "
Kube did not even yet have an auction
It was just a list of items for sale .

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:52 pm 
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KAGGR#1 wrote:
So John ;
Do you live in Texas ?

Years ago there was a collector in Germany
who only collected Kurassiere helmets and related items
I can say his name ; but no longer remember how to spell it .
He was a friend of Jarl Hartze of Stockholm , Sweden .
When the collector passed away
his widow told Jarl to come and select any one helmet
that he wanted . That is what her husband had asked her to do .

Jarl had taken 35mm color slides of this collection
and he made me a duplicate set
I need to get these out and see about
making photos from the slides
I would like to re-look at this collection
after all these years to see what early helmets were there .

Also the collection was placed with Jan Kube for sale .
This is how Kube got his "jump start "
Kube did not even yet have an auction
It was just a list of items for sale .

Steve


No, I live in Arizona. I know that Kube is considered one of the highest regarded experts in this field. I just hope I don't get in trouble for showing a page out of his book!

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:10 pm 
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John ;

I don't think the Kube would care ?
or for that fact even know about it .

He can be a hard -ass
I have done business with him for years
a lot more business in the earlier years

I have paid for his auction catalog for years
If you don't pay right away
he will send the first one of the year
BUT without his little magazine
then he will not send you a results sheet
then if no payment for the catalog
he cuts you off completely
No matter long you have done business
or now much you spend

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:47 am 
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The painting shows russian cuirassiers. Only one prussian Regiment had black cuirasses. The Garde du Corps and only for the spring parade.

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Last edited by kuerassier on Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:57 am 
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KAGGR#1 wrote:
So John ;


Years ago there was a collector in Germany
who only collected Kurassiere helmets and related items

Steve


This was Georg Petschke. His writings are the Best Source for Early helmets.

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:08 am 
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Kabinetts-Order vom 23. Oktober 1808
Zitat:
V. Offiziere der Regimenter.
B. Kavallerie.
1. Der Helm für die Offiziere der Kürassiere ist schwarz lackiert, das Blech vergoldet, an der linken Seite die Kokarde schwarz und weiß, und zur Bedeckung ein Kamm von schwarzem Roßhaar.

Kabinets-Ordre an den Direktor der dritten Division des Militair-Oeconomie-Departments, vom 30. April 1809:
Zitat:
10. Der Beschlag am Helm für Cürassiere soll von Messing seyn, für die Offiziere ganz der nemliche, aber vergoldet.

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:40 am 
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kuerassier wrote:
The painting shows russian cuirassiers. Only one prussian Regiment had black cuirasses. The Garde du Corps and only for the spring parade.



I suspected that these were Russian Cuirassiers. I looked at so many period paintings on the internet that I must have started believing the titles.

"It can't be on the internet if it's not true."

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:54 am 
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I must tell you that the picture shows the Russian cuirassiers. This Battle of Borodino. Russian battle with the Saxon cuirassiers.
Astrakhan Cuirassier Regiment


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:06 pm 
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This was Georg Petschke.

I think that are correct .
That name sounds right .

I think that I still have the old Kube sale
list . I am going to hunt for it .

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:52 pm 
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These are Prussians. Mine is the fourth from the left:

Image

Let me ask a stupid question (it will probably indicate my age), is it ever illegal to copy a photo from Google images?

John :?


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:17 am 
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I wish to thank everyone who participated in this thread. I have to admit that this went on longer than I expected, but I received several additional avenues for research from everyone's comments.

Some additional discoveries:

1) The Kokarde, credited to the French, was used by several of the 39 independent German speaking states prior to 1808. Bavaria began using a white-blue-white Kokarde in 1806. Bavaria fought for the French. The Kokarde was not adopted by Prussia until 23 October 1808 and it initially had nothing to do with rank. It was a symbol for national unity and national pride. Prussian Kokarden were black-white-black since their inception, but the style was varied and largely based upon the Regimental Commander's desires. The Kokarde was primarily used only by the military at this time and it took time to phase it in between all units. The infantry, Jagers, and Landwehr still used a Feldzeichen on their bell top shakos. All Kokardes were silk. Wool was not adopted for the Kokarde until 1813 and was phased in between 1813 and 1816, primarily to save money. Officer Kokarden were the same as enlisted; however, sometimes officers would have silver thread sewn into the white area. The Prussian Kokarde was standardized by Friedrich Wilhelm III on 22 February 1813 (one month before declaring war on France in the War of Liberation) and was mandated to be worn by all men 20 years old and older. It was to be worn on their hats. Women were not allowed to wear the Kokarde. Anyone refusing military service or showed "cowardice before the enemy" was denied the right to wear the Kokarde. Reaction to this order was said to be "extremely enthusiastic".

2) Officer uniforms did not differ much from enlisted uniforms except that officers had to pay for theirs. This may explain the continued use of the tricorn by officers since this "new" helmet could not have been cheap, even then. Officers were given a great deal of latitude on their uniforms. Uniformity was at the discretion of the Regimental Commander. Numerous references cite instances where regimental commanders placed "undue hardship" on their troops and junior officers by requiring additional uniform items. This was especially common in French regiments. One reference from the period cites that a regimental commander demanded all uniforms be the same color so troops showed up for parade with "paint still dripping" from their uniforms. Enlisted uniforms were considered livery denoting a subservient position of enlisted to officers. The Portapee and the epaulet distinguished the officer ranks, not the Kokarde. The Portapee was the only officer designation until 1806.

3) The parade plume used on the M1809 was simply a bunch of horsehair tied at one end and stuck into the front Raupe support of the helmet. It was used for parades only. It became a "fashion statement" or, we could say, en vogue, so it's popularity made it standard on 22 January 1810. Because the removable plume would fall out it became a permanent part of the helmet starting in 1810. More horsehair was simply sewn into the front of the Raupe.

4) One reference stated that "officers wore a queue and enlisted men wore a clubb". I had no idea what this meant, so I did an internet search and found this link:
https://www.nwta.com/courier/6-96/hair.html
Very interesting --- if you're into period haircuts!

Thank you all again for your input.

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:15 pm 
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Excellent post John et al, I have learned a great deal. Thank you! :thumb up:

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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:27 pm 
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Hello all, and sorry for the necropost! It's just that this subject is nothing that crops up often enough to be able to jump into a thread while it is still fresh.. Well, I bring some more evidence to compensate!


I have a 1809 cuirassier helmet of the GdC which is very early. It is a mannschaft as it does not have the fire-gilding and it should be from 1808 or 1809 as it does not have the chinstrap yet. It has the provisions for a detachable rosshaarkamm. The entire thing would come off and was attached with a screw. No evidence of sewing.

It shows a number of interresting differences from that of SkipperJohn, I wonder how much is due to the difference in rank, variations in manufacture or difference in age.

It is in fantastic condition apart from the missing liner and rosshaarkamm, and was found here in Sweden. I am thinking that it was stolen by some dastardly swede pretty soon after they reached the regiment. Maybe during a post-exercise helmet pickup. :)

The missing rosshaarkamm doesn't really bother me as the helmet is externally complete for a helmet of this type in field configuration.

Sorry for the somewhat blurry pictures.. It looks more dusty and the metal more tarnished than it is in reality.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:18 am 
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Quote:
It is that old. I believe that it was actually made in 1809. I did not put this in the original post because I have not verified it through multiple sources, but there is one source that says that the original Model 1809 helmet (they call it a Model 1808) had a horsehair plume that was worn on parade. It says that the plume was worn only on parade until 1810 after which it was worn at all times. The Raupe is obviously not removable, but on the reverse side of the Raupe support on this helmet there is a brass loop. This loop is part of the support and appears to serve no function whatsoever. It could be the attachment for a separate horsehair plume which would hang down in the front to about the midpoint of the Adler. In 1810 and later models there is no "parade plume" per se. It seems that there was just more horsehair sewn in at the front of the Raupe. I saw a later version of this helmet dismantled once and there was no brass loop and just longer hair in the front. Period paintings show both long and short hair versions.

The source stating this is not my favorite, and more often than not I don't trust them, but it does provide an idea.
If it is true, the likelihood that I will ever find an original parade plume is non-existent.
If I did find one, that would be the day that I would buy my first lottery ticket!

John :)


Outstanding addition d99wipe! :thumb up: This helps the research quite a bit. I had researched the detachable Raupe (Rosshaarkamm) as I mentioned in the above quote, but I can now see that the references were probably referring to removal of the entire Raupe. That would make mine a Model 1809 made between 1810 and 1813.

The most unusual aspect with regards to your helmet is that there is no provision for chinscales. I cannot imagine this helmet being worn without a chin strap of some sort. It would surely fall off when riding a horse. The early Russian 1803 Model that these helmets were patterned after had chinscales. I cannot find any reference to these being made without chinscales. Do you have an available reference to when chinscales were adopted by the Prussian Kurassiers?

Beautiful helmet!

Thanks,
John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:01 pm 
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I begin with apologizing for all the duplicate information in my reply, I wrote before I read.

The thing about the chinstrap is in here, amongst a wealth of good information:

http://www.reenactorforum.waszmann.de/c ... 91532153/0

You can find a catalogue entry on page 2 that seems to be your helmet!

in Pietsch's "Archiv für waffen und uniformkunde", published in the last few posts of this thread, you can read in the bottom half of the first column of page 2 (well, numbered 139) that an order replaced the previous leather "sturmriemen" with brass chinscales (schuppenkette) on the 10th of january 1810. What the sturmriemen looked like it does not say, but these, and all evidence of them are anyway also missing on mine. Maybe they were attached to the liner?

There is another interresting piece of evidence in Pietsch's article, in the 4th page there is a picture of an m1809 with schuppenketten. It's schuppenketten is fastened in an unusual fashion. It looks like the usual way of putting the kette high on the helmet came from experience, trying to counter the top-heaviness of the piece. The first few years they seem to have put the chin strap like one would for other hats and helmets, at the bottom. I think that the helmet in the picture is a proper 1810 piece rather than an updated pre-1810 one as it also has the permanently attached kamm (as ordered on 22 jan 1810). So they probably were manufactured like that for a while.

The helmet that dragoner08 published, the Mutius-helmet, has a lot in common with mine, detachable kamm, non green visor and the rivet for the visor slighly toward the front. It has the kette up high, but I think, as ketten and non-detachable kamme came in at the same time, that this is a later update.

The reason, by the way, that I can say for sure that mine is a mannschaft helmet is that the GdC officers wore an enamelled silver GdC star. The one thing that set the non-GdC officer helmets apart from their mannschaft counterparts, before the advent of the schuppenkette and thereby the Kokarde, was the gilded front plate as opposed to the brass one, which makes it tricky to tell them apart. But mine has none of the golden gleam that yours has.

While on the subject of materials, I do believe that they were made of russian leather, Juchten in german. It was the toughest and best leather around, made with seal and birch oil, which may account for the birch tar theory. You can find juchten in seats from the 18th century that looks like the day the chair was delivered.

Your helmet is really fantastic, seeing the liner intact is almost unheard of, it was very fragile. And it is in the proper configuration for the battles in which they were used, while mine was outdated by then. and the flat chinscales places it before 1815, so it is unlikely to be a post-war piece. It strikes me how russian it looks. Its like they started out making something a little uniquely prussian only to end up in an almost exact copy. It's like somebody said "enough already, the russians designed them, they know how they should work, lets just copy them!". But maybe the prussians just learned the same lessons as the russians and ended up with a similar design for that reason.

As you can see from photos everywhere, the front part of the kamm should be pretty droopy, it would be interresting to have a look to see why yours isn't! It doesnt seem to have shrunk. Maybe it has taken a sabre slash? :)

I guess if we found a date for the green colour under the visor and for the topwards move of the rosettes, we might be able to date your helmet pretty accurately!

It is interresting that the leather comb is low on yours, I wonder why. Might that be an officer thing? The Mutius helmet seems to have a high comb like mine, so the lower one must have come in at some later point.


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:28 pm 
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I read the website attached to your post and the Model 1809 with the lower mounted Schuppenkette is pictured earlier in this thread and again here:

Image

This is the only reference that I have ever seen that shows this type of Schuppenkette mounting on these helmets. All other references that I have seen show the higher mounting. This photo also shows the difference in comb height as new versions of this helmet were produced. Practically every reference points out that the leather comb got taller and the hair Raupe got shorter as time went on. This was not an officer peculiarity but based more on the helmet's year of manufacture. The Model 1809 in the photo also shows a permanently attached Kamm, as you mentioned. I might offer another theory: I would suppose that it is possible that my helmet also had a detachable Kamm at one point which was sewn in permanently when the order changed. I can see no evidence of a screw that would have held in the Kamm on my helmet. Where is this screw located???

I mentioned information in this thread earlier about the existence of a "parade plume" and that my helmet had an attachment loop on the back side of the comb protector. This may have held an additional hair attachment that hung down in the front. I can find no other use for it. It is more likely that I am just missing some of the Raupe or that it was cut short in the front at some point.

I also saw the ad from the Kube auction that shows my helmet. To my knowledge Kube never owned this helmet. The person I purchased it from knows Kube but I don't think it came from him. Perhaps it was advertised in multiple places.

I believe, at this point, that mine is an officer's helmet. Looking at all of the information provided which says that the officer and enlisted front plates were identical except that the officers plates were gilded, leads me to believe that this is an officers helmet, because the front plate is definitely gilded. Interestingly enough Kube advertised it as a Mannschaft helmet.

Since these helmets were all handmade by multiple manufacturers from 1808/9 well into the 1830's, finally going out of service in 1842, it is likely that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of differences that can be found in existing examples. What a wonderful hobby!

John :D


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:40 am 
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I was wrong regarding he screw, I thought the screw holding the front plate went all the way through the comb. It doesn't. The comb was affixed through holes in the sides of the comb, much like the thread in your case, only that there are only two pairs of holes. One just by the brass front edge and one where it starts curve frontwards (where the "durchschoss" is on the mutius helmet if I understand it correctly, very flimsy!). At the bottom there is a notch where the middle layers of leather stop just short of the neck guard. Mine does not have the neck guard slot that yours has.

I also noticed that there are holes for extra rivets around the visor rivets, like there has been a smaller rivet that was obscured by the larger one. It also looks like there is a faint depression where a half-inch leather chinstrap may have run.

It is difficult to do meaningful statistics with so few helmets around of any description. We have mine, the Mutius, the Pietsch with the low mounted schuppenketten, the Kube m1809 and the Kube Oldenburg which is not really the same thing, altough it also has the low mounted Schuppenketten.

Here is another one, with a steel bow to keep the kamm straight like on newer specimens:
http://www.historicalimagebank.com/gall ... d.jpg.html

And another one with the convex schuppenketten, difficult to say anything about it as they may be added later. Maybe the visor rivet is centered?:
http://www.militarytrader.com/wp-conten ... W-copy.jpg


Your's has a lot of features that are not in evidence among any of the other helmets. The low leather comb, the green front visor, rearward (well, centered) visor rivet and a slightly flaired comb front without a rivet through. As the green visor is carried forward it seems logical that mine and the Mutius which both have brown inner visors are earlier. As the other helmets of which we know nothing of the insides share the other features with these two early helmets, I'm thinking that yours is the most modern of the bunch.

Still, that doesn't narrow the dating range from 1810-1815 nor make it certain. It is not unreasonable to believe that most surviving helmets would be early. Most of them are officers versions (mine is the only exception, it seems), logically, as officers would have had a greater affinity and opportunity to keep them. Officers tend to stay in the service for longer and the officer corps to be more static. So a lot of the officers serving at the end of the napoleonic wars would have been around when the early helmets came out, gotten one of them and stuck with it.

So, a timeline may be, with great uncertainty due to the possibility of later updates:
* Mine 1808-1809: out of service before the schuppenketten

* Mutius 1808-1809: Got the schuppenketten, probably as an addition as it still has a detachable comb. Was in service after the schuppenketten was ordered. The high mount may be due to the addition happening long after the order came out.

* The Pietsch and maybe Kube Oldenburg, 1810-1815: postdate the previous as they have the permanently affixed comb with low mounted schuppenketten. I think these predate the high mounted ketten as those were carried forward (and more practical!). Unknown inside visor colour, oldenburg with unknown comb brass front details.

* The Kube m1809 and the historicalimagebank, 1810-1815: Permanently affixed comb and high mounted schuppenketten. Unknown inside visor colour, the Kube with unknown comb brass front and the historicalimagebank with comb supports. I take the comb supports as a much later addition as these only show up on later models.

*SkipperJohn, 1810-1815: postdate the first two as it has a green inside visor. Low leather comb, visor rivet centered, comb brass front flaired and without rivet set it apart from the previous ones which may indicate that these features are later. Centering the visor rivet is logical from an aesthetic perspective, while the initial position may have been forced by the leather chinstrap. This has not been taken care of in the previous examples

* militarytrader, from 1815: Very difficult to say, but the convex ketten would date it to post 1815. All of the other dating evidence is missing from the picture except maybe a centered visor rivet.

I think the oldenburg is relevant, I remember reading somewhere that the kürassier-helmets were used by a few dragoon regiments for a while.

Maybe the kamm was designed so that you could replace the front? Seeing as it is quite likely to wear more than the rest.

Extremely entertaining area, if maybe somewhat pricey & difficult to get into unless you are lucky. You have to really comb through the scant evidence there is over and over again! I love this thread, thank you John! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:21 am 
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I believe that your timeline is fairly accurate. I must admit; however, that the photo we are using as our prime example of a Model 1809 is questionable, at best. I have no doubt that the helmet is a quality M1809 example but, after much research, I began to disregard it in terms of the Schuppenkette.

Image

Note on the M1809 example above that the Schuppenkette are convex. All models had flat chinscales until a military directive ordered them to be convex in late 1815 early 1816. The phase in of convex chinscales occurred between 1816 and 1818. Also the Schuppenkette are held on with rosettes that incorporate a thumb screw fastener. According to references the external thumbscrew fastener with a screw protruding from the inside of the helmet out was not used until the early 1820's. The rosettes on my helmet have a screw that is attached to the rosette itself. On another Napoleonic example that I have (I haven't written about it yet) the rosettes utilized the early "flat strap" type of bent pin attachment. This helmet is dated 1814. When using the above photo as an example I made the assumption that it had been "updated" at some point in it's life.

The Raupe comb on my helmet is the same as the Military Trader example that you linked to as well as being dimensionally the same as the 1809 pictured above. I think that part of the confusion on the height of the comb is that the stitching is still very tight and the comb is pulled tightly together making it appear shorter. There is another photo of an existing example in a series of books (not my favorite), Cavalry of the Napoleonic Wars, #12, Prussian Cuirassiers, Osprey on page 14. This shows a front plume that definitely appears to be separate from the regular Kamm and it has high mounted Schuppenkette.

I believe that these helmets had a "potatoe sack" type liner until their demise. Most Prussian headgear from the Napoleonic period used this type of liner until about 1810. My 1814 piece has an early tongued liner but it is not the same as a Pickelhaube.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that the research on this is somewhat daunting and it continues along that path.

I wish that I could drum up as much interest in the other Napoleonic piece I posted here: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=10766

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:50 pm 
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Although I have never owned a Napoleonic period piece of head wear, I do enjoy reading about them and the details about their construction. I would like to know more about not only Prussian and the other German states of the period, but about all the types worn during the Napoleonic Wars and later. I've seen photos and drawings and even held a piece or two in my hands, but the details about the construction I find of great interest, please continue posting.

I'm very interested in the way things were made, the "How did they do that" factor.


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:36 pm 
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I see all your points regarding the low mounted schuppenketten. Also, as they have rather bulky arrangements on the insides, I guess any low placed schuppenketten would cause there to be brain-piercing nuts and screws on the inside, which is unlikely to have been acceptable. Bent pins maybe, though... It would be interesting to learn more about this 1814 dated specimen, it is the time frame gap that we are seemingly missing!

It could also be a trick of the mind as the kamm makes it look smaller. I could do some measurements on my leather comb once I get back from celebrating the holidays! Am I seeing it correctly that the brass front edge is flaired towards the top though?

Liners will always be rarer than helmets I guess, so that sounds like a challenging area of research. According to that cost sum-up on the german site, they speak of linen, which must have been meant for the liner. That sum up is supposedly from may 1814.

A divided kamm is definately a reasonable development. It would be interesting to analyze a complete specimen!

That shako is amazing, I always like the non-elite things best, mannschaft and landwehr. But I suppose the reason for the lacking support may be in the name of this site, kürassierhelme are at least related to if not the direct ancestor of the pickelhaubes. If I find a Landwehr shako, count on me to join the fray however!

aicusv, it is not entirely easy to tell how they built these helmets from examining them, but I think the construction of mine looks more crude than the officer helmets. I enjoy the fact of holding something that is the stuff of legends from old paintings in my hand and feel the reality of them; that they actually once have required some engineering more than the brushstrokes of an artist.


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:31 pm 
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I measured the leather comb at the front of my helmet where the brass attachment sits and it is just about 7.5 cm. Apparently it has shrunk over time because the brass attachment measures about 9 cm where it attaches to the leather Raupe. The leather comb stitching is very tight giving the sides of the comb sort of a "balloon" look. Also, because of your post, I checked the side of the Raupe and Kamm and it appears that two of the holes for the stitches holding the Kamm are larger than the other holes and there are two holes in the leather Raupe just at the base of where the Kamm attaches that appear to have no purpose. It is entirely possible that either the two larger holes, or the two additional holes (which before I just passed off as age) could have been used to hold on a removable Kamm. I also carefully inspected the stitching holding in the Kamm, and, even though it appears to have been tarred like the other stitching, it does not appear to have been as professionally done. I am now very curious about the possibility that the Kamm was initially removable but was permanently sewn in after 1810. This could also contribute to the Raupe being somewhat shorter.

Image

Image

The front brass Raupe support is somewhat flared at the top when looking at the helmet from the front. I did not give this much thought because I had seen examples and photos that had either flared or straight Raupe supports. This could be an officer application or just a manufacturer variance. The most interesting aspect is the loop on the inside of the support. It has to be there for some reason.

Image

I believe the photo makes it look more flared than it actually is.

I hope to post an article on my 1814 piece soon. It is a Tschako and not a helmet such as these.

aicusv: Keep reading and look at other sections in this forum. As time permits I hope to write articles on:
1814 Tschako
Napoleonic Prisoner of War Art
Model 1809 Briquet Sword
Prussian Campaign Medals of the Napoleonic Wars

This is a Pickelhaube site and I don't want to become a pariah by continuing to add all Napoleonic stuff. I have a few more Pickelhaubes to add to this forum while putting together the Napoleonic articles.

John :)


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 Post subject: Re: Prussian Line Cuirassier EM Model 1809
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:46 pm
Posts: 5
My leather comb ranges from 2cm at the base just above the neck protector, through 5cm halfway through the turn to 9cm just before the support. The support itself is a little over 10cm. That doesn't sound like a lot, but it alters the proportions considerably in my mind.

I guess the details in yours can't be used as dating evidence without more dated helmet examples that share these features. With these things springing to light from everywhere right now, there's hope that there will be such examples available! Do you have any publishable helmet with flaired supports?

Another aspect that you can research is where your kamm goes through the rear neck shield, that is a feature neither doubled on mine nor the Mutius it seems. Maybe you can se if it is an feature original to the helmet or later?

My vote for the loop is that the long droopy part of the kamm was replacable.

Funny, what caused me to find this site was that I was hoping that the reenactors had constructed replacement kamms, only to find that helmets with replacable kamms weren't typical. Similarly, maybe now you need a replacement front kamm.

An emotional reflection on my part; these were worn by the Cuirassiers at the height of their power, these most romantic of soldiers who were to charge straight into the enemy. At a time when that must have seemed like an eternal order, but now so long ended that they fade into legend. And the nation which was known for these soldiers above all were prussia. Napoleon himself warned his generals of them, and once the country was occupied they sharpened their swords on the stairs of the french embassy. To hold one of these pieces is almost like touching a fairy tale..


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