Little-uns vs. Big-uns or, Comparing Wappen sizes.

[Tony & Kaiser]

Similar to the old "Who Want's Chicken" thread I did for comparing Line Eagle Wappen, I thought it would be interesting to compare similar Wappens of different sizes, i.e. Tschako and Tschapka vs. Pickelhaube. Measurements were made with a cloth tape measure laid onto the obverse (front) of the eagle from the bottom of the tail feathers to the top of the crown. Examples measured varied 2 to 3 mm for similar models which could account for manufacturer's variation.

The first is the most familiar, the Preußen gilt Line Eagle Wappen. The smaller one was worn by several Ulanen Regts, most of the Jäger Battalions, and Preußen Train until 1903. It measures only 95mm compared to the larger Infantry Line Eagle Wappen at 115mm. Both of these are M1895 eagles.



The second (below) is more obscure, being the German silver (nickel) Preußen Line Eagle Wappen. The smaller one was worn by:

Ulanen Regts 5, 6, 8, 15, and 16 (and UR7 until 1913);
Preußen Telegraphen Battalions 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6; and
Preußen Luftschiffer-Bataillons 3, 4, and 5.

It measures only 95mm compared to the larger Eagle Wappen worn only by Preußen Pionier at 113mm. Both of these are M1895 Eagle Wappens.



The last for Preußen, (below) is the Preußen M1915 steel Eagle Wappen. The smaller one was worn by several Ulanen Regts, most of the Jäger Battalions, and Preußen Telegraphen Battalions. It measures only 95mm compared to the larger one at 115mm. Note the "clipped beak" on the 95mm example, mostly found on Ulanen Tschapka.

Tomorrow, Württemberg.


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[epsomgreen]

Hi Tony:

It's interesting how the Neusilber Tschako Wappen and the M15 Tschapka Wappen have a connective bit of metal joining the wings to the legs. Now, compare your M95 brass with mine. You will also see the clipped beak here (which really does look like it has been clipped). Furthermore, a band of metal connects the orb to leg. Odd that my Tschako Wappen shares more characteristics with your M15 Tschapka than the other two.

Fascinating variations. I imagine the conjoined wings/legs represent a specific maker.



Can't wait to see the Württ comparisons.

Chas.

[Tony & Kaiser]

[Tony & Kaiser]

I have two issued comparisons for Württemberg, the first is of the gilt Wappen. The smaller one was only worn by one unit, Württembergisches Train-Bataillon Nr.13 between 1871 and 1903. Consequently, they are quite rare. Like its Preußen counterpart, it measures only 95mm from the top of the crown to the bottom of the center, compared to the larger Infantry Line Wappen at 125mm.



The second issued comparison for Württemberg is the German silver (nickel) Wappen. The smaller one was worn by 5 units:

Ulanen-Regts 17, 18, and 20;
3rd Komp of Telegraphen-Bataillon Nr.4; and
4th Komp of Luftschiffer-Bataillon Nr. 4.

Like its Preußen counterpart, it measures only 95mm compared to the larger 125mm Wappen worn by:

Grenadier-Regt. Königin Olga (1.Württembergisches) Nr.119;
Grenadier-Regt. König Karl (5.Württembergisches) Nr.123;
Württembergisches Pionier-Batl. Nr.13; and
Dragoner-Regt. Königin Olga (1. Württembergisches) Nr.25.




Of interest is the way the oak leaves on the bottom of the larger 125mm Wappen dip down in the center. Tomorrow, Sachsen (Saxony)!
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[Guest]

Tony,

As always, your contributions are highly informative. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

Cheers,

Laurie

[Tony & Kaiser]

Now for Sachsen (Saxony). These measurements are average, as with the Sachsen center Wappen having different depths, it makes these very hard to accurately measure. The first comparison is the gilt Wappen. The smaller one was worn by:

Kgl. Sächs. Schützen (Füsilier)-Regt. Prinz Georg Nr.108 (until 1909);
Ulanen-Regts 17 and 18;
Kgl. Sächs. Husaren-Regts 18, 19, & 20;
Kgl. Sächs. Train-Bataillon Nr.12 & 19 (until 1903); and
Kgl. Sächs. Telegraphen-Bataillon Nr.7.

It measures only 82mm compared to the larger Infantry Line Wappen at 104mm. It appears though, that the Saschen Ulanen did not always wear the smaller Wappen, especially after 1914. Original Sachsen Tschapka are often found with the 105mm Wappen.



A 82mm Wappen was also worn with the colors reversed, i.e. silver base star and gilt center Wappen by:

Ulanen-Regt 21;
Sachsen Jäger battalions, Nr. 12 & 13 (until 1909);
3rd Komp of Luftschiffer-Bataillon Nr.2;
3rd Komp of Flieger-Bataillon Nr.1; and
2nd Komp Kraftfahr-Bataillon.

Interestingly, Kgl. Sächs. Maschinengewehr-Abteilung Nr.8 did not wear the 82mm size Wappen, as they wore Preußen pattern Tschako with the 104mm Wappen.

The second issued comparison for Sachsen (Saxony) is a horned Wappen. The 82mm example in this coloration was worn only by Kgl. Sächs. Schützen (Füsilier)-Regt. Prinz Georg Nr.108. The Sachsen Jäger battalions, Nr. 12 and 13, wore a similar Wappen, but with reversed colors, i.e.. silver base star and gilt center Wappen and horn.

I have in my possession many photos of Sachsen Jäger where you can plainly see there is NO horn under the Sachsen Wappen. From 1867 until 1909, Sachsen Jäger and Schützen wore the reduced size Sachsen Wappen, but only on 31 Aug 1909 the horn was added to the Wappen of the Jäger and Schützen, in silver and gilt respectively.



And last: the steel M1915s. The 82mm example shown below would have been worn by the Sachsen Jäger and Schützen. 82mm Wappens without horn were worn by the remaining units (Ulanen, Husaren, Flieger etc). Like the pre-1915 versions the steel full-size M1915 Wappen measures on average 104mm.



Thats all I have to offer, I hope this was interesting.
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[Wyliecoyote]

Tony
These were way more than interesting. Always look forward to your contributions, thanks for sharing. I personally would not have the opportunity to see so many fine examples of Imperial German Militaria otherwise. Thanks for the education and the eye candy too!

Geo
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[Tony & Kaiser]

In a final shameless plug, if anyone has a small size Wappen they do not need.............

I am after all types, but specially I am looking for an M1915 Feldgrau 95mm Württemberg (tragically I do not have an M15 Tschapka) and a M1915 Feldgrau 82mm Sachsen Wappen without horn.
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[Tony & Kaiser]

Last, my favorites, the three Amigos. Please note that all three of these are 95mm examples, are M1895 pattern (loops to the rear) and all three have long tail feathers that drop straight down from the bottom the chest, a feature changed on the 115mm Line Eagle Wappen in 1871 where three short feathers drop down from the chest to form a VVV shape.



LEFT From 1860 to 1895 the eagle Wappen on Jäger Mannschaften Tschako had standard overlapping chest feathers. In 1895 one manufacturer changed the chest feathers so they appear to meet in the center, like fingers, touching.

CENTER Other manufacturers continued to produce Jäger Mannschaften Tschako Wappen with the pre-1895 overlapping chest feathers. You can see how the left and center are very similar in shape and features except for the chest feathers. They both have the typical 1895 characteristic of having the area between the upper legs and wing feathers voided.

RIGHT This is the pattern normally found only on issued Tschapka. It has a different shape and is often found with a "clipped beak". This pattern normally does not have the area between the upper legs and wing feathers voided and has a small connecting bar between the right leg and orb. Chest feathers on this pattern, are always overlapped.
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[Tony & Kaiser]

Like so...........


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[Tony & Kaiser]

Just arrived, a very nice 1909 Tschako Wappen for Kgl. Sächs. Jäger-Batl.Nr. 12 & 13. It measures in at exactly 90mm.
And yes, regardless of this nice little addition I am still looking for a Sachsen Jäger Tschako.


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[zipperheads9]

Is the much difference between the 2 heavy Prussian Calvary Plates? just curiuos .It helps when looking at Plates to know whhar minor differences there are.
Mark

[Tony & Kaiser]

Here we have both sizes of the Preußen gilt so-called "old style Grenadier" Eagle Wappen, which as you will see, is a name that does not really apply as many arms used the "FWR" (Friedrich Wilhelm Rex) in a cypher on the chest.

The smaller one measures only 95mm and was used right up until 1915. Possibly after, but I have never seen a grey steel M15 example. It was worn by:

Ulanen Regts 1, 2, and 3; and
Jäger Battalions 1 & 2, 5, and 6.



700 pixel photo> http://www.kaisersbunker.com/wappens/wappen13.jpg

The larger "old style Grenadier" Eagle Wappen at 115mm is a little more complicated. It was worn (with or without Bandeau) until replaced by the swept-wing eagle Wappen without the Garde star, which had previously been worn by the Garde Grenadier regiments. The line Grenadier Regts adopted the swept-wing eagle Wappen and retired the old Grenadier eagle Wappen on the following dates:

1888 by Grenadier Regt. Nr. 4,

1897 by Grenadier Regt. Nr. 2 and 7,

1898 by Grenadier Regt. Nr. 8,

1901 by Grenadier Regt. Nr. 3, and

1913 by Grenadier Regts. Nr. 5, 6, 10, 11, and 12.

Other Units In addition to Infantry, a 115mm gilt was worn (with or without Bandeau) by:

Feldartillerie (Field Artillery) Regts 1, 2, 3, and 6; and

Fußartillerie (Foot Artillery) Regts 1, 2, 3, and 6.

And finally, a 115mm silver verion was worn by Pionier (Pioneer) Batl. Nr.1 and 3.
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[JR92]

Hello,

Some differences...
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Regards

[DPW]

I have a battlefield 'relic' M95 pickelhaube, stamped for the 2. Thuringisches Infanterie-Regiment (I B, 4 C, IR 32, 1899), recovered by a British officer, but it has the small 95mm M1871 Line type brass wappen (or at least what is left of it), as indicated by the feathers between the eagle's legs. Its the only example I have of the small size Wappen in fact, all the others being the larger 115mm. But this doesn't seem to fit the units listed as using this size brass Wappen. It is the correct one to the helmet, indicated by the impressed outline of the Wappen in the leather. Any comments on this welcome.

All the best to everybody,

Denton