Does German Mod 16 Camo Look Right
- Thread starter Don
- Start date
Hey Don.
This helmet looks good to me in the photos, but haveing your hands on it is more important, The poor quality of the paint job is something that a person making a fake would try to simulate, because many were painted in the field, some of the nice period cammos were probably painted post war for the soldiers to take home.
I like this helmet
Best
gus
This helmet looks good to me in the photos, but haveing your hands on it is more important, The poor quality of the paint job is something that a person making a fake would try to simulate, because many were painted in the field, some of the nice period cammos were probably painted post war for the soldiers to take home.
I like this helmet
Best
gus
Peter_Suciu
Well-known member
I honestly think MORE of these helmets were painted on the boat ride home than during the war. Same with the American insignia.
The photos from the period just don't show that many camo helmet. That said, this helmet looks to be of the "era." I think we have to accept that a lot of WWI stuff is really WWI era.
The photos from the period just don't show that many camo helmet. That said, this helmet looks to be of the "era." I think we have to accept that a lot of WWI stuff is really WWI era.
Hey Peter,
I traded off a very nice camo for the reason that you state, most being painted after the war, although I think most were painted in Belgium, in the same cottage industry that produced nearly all the "trench art".
There are numereous photos taken in August of 1918 that show many of the camo helmets on german Soldiers that were taken prisoner during the "Black Day" The black boardered camo is the most easily spotted, but there are other typs in the photos.
Best
Gus
PS I found the photos of the camo helmets the week after I traded mine off
I traded off a very nice camo for the reason that you state, most being painted after the war, although I think most were painted in Belgium, in the same cottage industry that produced nearly all the "trench art".
There are numereous photos taken in August of 1918 that show many of the camo helmets on german Soldiers that were taken prisoner during the "Black Day" The black boardered camo is the most easily spotted, but there are other typs in the photos.
Best
Gus
PS I found the photos of the camo helmets the week after I traded mine off
There is much discussion regarding WW1 German camo helmets. This is my belief:
1) Disregarding modern (by modern I mean 1960's to now) fakes, I believe the vast majority of them were painted during the war. The number postwar souvenier painted pieces is greatly overestimated.
2) The helmets were not painted by the individual soldiers, but by details at some organizational level (platoon, company, etc) while out of the line.
3) Some helmets almost appear to be factory done. Over the years I have seen some helmets done very nicely, with very smooth paint, always in the same colors and in the same style, kind of a swirly design. These were probably done at a higher (corps?) echelon. I am haunted by one of these I saw in the early 70's that had an MGSS insignia painted on it. No, I didn't buy it.
4) Regarding colors, they used what they could get. Regulations are fine, but Germany was short of everything in 1918. Unless the colors are completely garish, it's OK.
5) In my 40 plus years of looking, I would estimate maybe 10% - 15% of the many hundreds I"ve seen were camoed,
6) One reason photographic evidence is scarce is that retreating armies don't have time or inclination to take photos. I have studied WW1 since I was a kid in the sixties, I have seen very few photos from the German side taken in the Argonne in 1918. However, I have read more than a few doughboy accounts describing camo German helmets. There's a passage in Woodfill Of The Regulars where he talks of picking off a German MG team wearing them.
7) Having said all that, modern fakes are so good they are scary. Even the "one lookers" need a second and third look. I won't buy them anymore unless it's from the doughboy's attic.
There. I've thrown the bomb. Agree or disagree, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Steve
1) Disregarding modern (by modern I mean 1960's to now) fakes, I believe the vast majority of them were painted during the war. The number postwar souvenier painted pieces is greatly overestimated.
2) The helmets were not painted by the individual soldiers, but by details at some organizational level (platoon, company, etc) while out of the line.
3) Some helmets almost appear to be factory done. Over the years I have seen some helmets done very nicely, with very smooth paint, always in the same colors and in the same style, kind of a swirly design. These were probably done at a higher (corps?) echelon. I am haunted by one of these I saw in the early 70's that had an MGSS insignia painted on it. No, I didn't buy it.
4) Regarding colors, they used what they could get. Regulations are fine, but Germany was short of everything in 1918. Unless the colors are completely garish, it's OK.
5) In my 40 plus years of looking, I would estimate maybe 10% - 15% of the many hundreds I"ve seen were camoed,
6) One reason photographic evidence is scarce is that retreating armies don't have time or inclination to take photos. I have studied WW1 since I was a kid in the sixties, I have seen very few photos from the German side taken in the Argonne in 1918. However, I have read more than a few doughboy accounts describing camo German helmets. There's a passage in Woodfill Of The Regulars where he talks of picking off a German MG team wearing them.
7) Having said all that, modern fakes are so good they are scary. Even the "one lookers" need a second and third look. I won't buy them anymore unless it's from the doughboy's attic.
There. I've thrown the bomb. Agree or disagree, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Steve
Thanks for your input Peter, Gus & Steve, I collect Canadian & British miltaria so this is a little out of my field & I had only saw nice camo helmets. I have enough on my plate figuring out CDN & British oddities & peculiarities. If I ever did change, my choice would be WW I German. Steve mentioned fakes, copies, replicas etc. and I guess thats the biggest problem we all face. These forums are great & your taking time to answer is appreciated. Don
Peter_Suciu
Well-known member
Steve--
You make some good points. Where I disagree with you however, is the period helmets that have been in America.
Only in the past 20 years have we seen a major influx of trading world wide in militaria. Until the Internet only a handful of people ever bought militaria in Europe and brought it to America, and probably far less militaria went from the United States to Europe.
I bought my two Japanese WWII swords in London in the 1990s before the Internet craze really caught on. I knew swords were pretty common in the UK, because the soldiers brought them home.
So my point is that many of the camo helmets in the United States were probably painted on the way home. I think most of the American helmets with divisional insignia were painted on the way home and for parades.
In the United States I think we probably see as (at least at the shows) as many camo helmets as those with original factory paint. So that's what I'm basing my comment on. I agree in the UK it is probably different.
What complicates matters is that those 1960s fakes now have 40-50 years of age!
Peter
You make some good points. Where I disagree with you however, is the period helmets that have been in America.
Only in the past 20 years have we seen a major influx of trading world wide in militaria. Until the Internet only a handful of people ever bought militaria in Europe and brought it to America, and probably far less militaria went from the United States to Europe.
I bought my two Japanese WWII swords in London in the 1990s before the Internet craze really caught on. I knew swords were pretty common in the UK, because the soldiers brought them home.
So my point is that many of the camo helmets in the United States were probably painted on the way home. I think most of the American helmets with divisional insignia were painted on the way home and for parades.
In the United States I think we probably see as (at least at the shows) as many camo helmets as those with original factory paint. So that's what I'm basing my comment on. I agree in the UK it is probably different.
What complicates matters is that those 1960s fakes now have 40-50 years of age!
Peter
Hey Ron, I am pretty sure that those como helmets found in the bunker in France were painted on the ship home to the US they are the classic black boarder camo design, and I think that Steve may be right about post war camos, there were more than enough already available, so there should not have been much af a market for painting any, with the exception of unit insignias.
Best
Gsu
they are the classic black boarder camo design, and I think that Steve may be right about post war camos, there were more than enough already available, so there should not have been much af a market for painting any, with the exception of unit insignias.Best
Gsu
Stahlhelm
Member
Steve, I agree with you pretty much on all points. The amount of WW1 German camo helmets available at shows here in Canada in the early 90's when I started collecting was incredible. I found 4 or 5 high-end camos before I finally located a nice field grey helmet. The only fakes around initially were pitiful, although I did make a few mistakes in time, mostly with WW2 helmets.
In my opinion, the old fakes and even the new ones aren't nearly as scary as the WW2 fakes being churned out today. Once you've had the chance to develop your eye by examining enough of the fakes and originals, 90+ years of wear and age plus the different look of the pigments used then and now just don't compare. The good thing is that - with the fake camos at least - the majority of the red flags are usually most noticeable when examining the inside of the helmet, especially if the helmet is faked from the ground up including the interior field grey paint and liner. This is most often the case in my experience.
~Hans
In my opinion, the old fakes and even the new ones aren't nearly as scary as the WW2 fakes being churned out today. Once you've had the chance to develop your eye by examining enough of the fakes and originals, 90+ years of wear and age plus the different look of the pigments used then and now just don't compare. The good thing is that - with the fake camos at least - the majority of the red flags are usually most noticeable when examining the inside of the helmet, especially if the helmet is faked from the ground up including the interior field grey paint and liner. This is most often the case in my experience.
~Hans