Guard Eagle, Guard Eagle w/o Star and Guard Grenadier Eagle

[dave mosher]

Wie gehts all:

I just saw Tony’s wonderful M1867 Garde Grenadier helmet, and it rekindled some questions I had posed in the “old forum” that , to my mind, were never fully addressed.

I had questioned about the specific uses of the wide winged “grenadier” eagle which had the eagle on the scepter vs. the artichoke on the scepter. Here are three plates that illustrate this.



Close-up



I have always contented that the wide-winged eagle plate with the smaller eagle on the scepter was used specifically for three cavalry regiments: DR1, DR3 and UR7. However, the wording and description of these plates between in the contemporary references still creates a lot of confusion to me.

For me, without a printing of the original AKOs, the two contemporary references I would hang my hat on would be Pietsch and/or Knotel, but they conflict each other.

Pietsch Book 2 states that DR1 received the “Grenadier Eagle w/o Star” in 1854 and DR3 received the same (in silver) in 1897. In Book 1, Pietsch had previously described the difference between the “Guard Eagle” and the “Guard Grenadier Eagle” which was created in 1842 for GGR1 and GGR2. The Guard Grenadier Eagle did not have a guard star, the sword hilt was S-shaped vs. cross-shaped, and the scepter has the artichoke vs. the eagle. In 1889, the Guard Grenadier regiments were authorized the Guard Eagle with Star, and the older plates were phased into the line grenadier regiments over several years.

Pietsch Book 2 also states that the large grenadier eagle was authorized in 1913 for UR7 in the form of the guard uhlan regiments except w/o the guard star.

In Book 1 of Das Deutsche Heer, Knotel states that the plates for DR1, DR3 and UR7 utilize the “Guard Eagle w/o Star”.

Having said all this, I believe that Knotel’s plate description above as the "Guard Eagle w/o Star" for DR1, DR3 and UR7 would explain the use of the eagle on the scepter (vs. the artichoke) for those regiments, and not just an anomoly or variation. Pietsch’s description of “Grenadier Eagle w/o Star” makes no sense; a grenadier eagle doesn’t have a star to begin with. Peitsch also seems to mix and match between the specific differences between grenadier plates and guard plates for UR7.

Just some thoughts to hopefully provoke some discussion…

Regards

Dave

 

[joerookery]

This is the start of my feeble response -- time for a nap.

Turinetti is the only modern author that I know of that has taken this issue head on. This is my take on what the issue is. What is the significance of the difference in sword hilt and scepter top in Guard and Grenadier Eagle? What exactly is guard eagle without a star?

For the sake of the discussion with no insults intended to anyone for any reason. The terminology used in the old forum was S hilt and bowtie hilt for the sword. For the scepter the terminology used was either artichoke or pineapple top -- versus "chicken on a stick."


In his dichotomous key on page VII and page In VIII Turinetti separates the types in detail. The list shows those with the S. hilt and the artichoke as "Grenadier Eagle" and shows a larger picture as figure 6 on page 180. This covers all of the Grenadier units including those with a band. Those with the bowtie hilt and the chicken on a stick are called Guard Eagles. There are larger diagrams in the seven series on page 181. The dichotomous key groups together the guard eagles with straight wings and those with upswept wings at first together and then separates them out for Ulan units.

Therefore by his interpretation all guard eagles have bowtie hilts and a chicken on a stick. A guard eagle without star has a bowtie hilt and a chicken on a stick. If it has an S hilt and an artichoke it is a Grenadier Eagle.

In note one for the 145th infantry Regiment on page 45 of his book Turinetti indicates that the eagle "appears to have evolved" from the S. hilt to the bowtie and from the artichoke to the chicken on a stick. I understand that the order granting the larger eagle was dated 16 June 1913. Not much time to evolve and I do not have the AKO. Dragoon regiment number one DR1, dragoon regiment number three DR3, and Ulan regiment number seven UR7 each have guard eagles without a star.

Seems like he has a reasonable construct. Wouldn't it be nice if everything fit into these nice little boxes! Unfortunately...

 

[dave mosher]

Joe:

We are both in agreement in what the description of a "Guard Eagle w/o Star" should be, and therefore would be utilized on the DR1, DR3 and UR7 helmets. Unfortunately, this DR1 plate doesn't seem to fit in the little box...

S-hilt and "chicken on a stick"

 

[joerookery]

If you go back and look at the exact Meybauer plates they follow the Turinetti construct exactly. DR 1, DR 3, and UR 7 all have guard eagles without star. If you look at Neumann catalog there is no difference in the description given for the eagle between the dragoon regiments and the grenadier regiments. There are no pictures. The example shown in Trawnik’s book all fit the construct and the 145th examples have the S. hilt and the artichoke.

Just when you thought you were comfortable with the construct on page 95 of the Cowan book there is an example of the dragoon regiment number three reserve officer that has a S. hilt and a chicken on a stick. This example also shows up in Stubbs on page 279. There is an example of a reserve officer in dragoon regiment number three in Ulrich Herr’s massive new book on page 331. It fits the construct so any idea of reserves being different do not match. There is an example of Ulan regiment seven on page 149 that has an S. hilt and an artichoke.

In his book on Ofc. helmets Hilsenbeck on page 85 shows a picture of a reserve officer from Guard Grenadier regiment number five that has an S. hilt and an artichoke along with a nicely enameled guard star. In the same book on page 100 there is a Grenadier officer shown with a bowtie hilt and then artichoke.

Finally, in Ulrich Herr’s massive new book on page 538 there are two examples of dragoon regiment number three. One has a bowtie hilt and chicken on a stick, the other has an S. hilt. In the caption the author notes this strange anomaly and says it might be due to different manufacturers.

Absolutely faultless conclusion:... beats me.
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