Officer and OR's Kokarden

b.loree

b.loree

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This section is under reconstruction starting Feb 2020.
In 1891 the Prussians introduced helmets with Model 1891 side posts for the chin straps/scales. Prior to this chin scales were fastened using a bolt system and small hole kokade. Consequently, kokarden destined for the M91 posts helmets needed to have a larger hole to fit over the side post. We have seen examples where the older small hole kokarde has been drilled out to fit the new M91 post.
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The most common State kokade, the Prussian M91 with serrated edges. The State kokarde is always worn over the left ear post.
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The Prussian style Reichs kokarde introduced in 1897. This is always placed on the right ear post.
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Often you will find a bit of red "over splash" on the reverse side.
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Reichs kokarde.
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Saxe M91 kokarden
Note...smooth edges and "V" cut out for the M91 post. This cut out is most common to the Saxon kokarden but is also found in Prussian and Wurttemberg kokarden as well.
 
Some rare kokarden:
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Top row: Wurttemberg, Oldenburg Bottom: JR 95 Thuringe, JR94 Weimar Eisenach
 
A comparison photo of additional kokardes is at the following topic.
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6021&p=39429#p39429" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
The cavalry cockades went straight on my JZP Metalhelme as posted here.

I'll risk answering your initial question Professor Loree: The non-serrated cockades are for the Saxon M95/15 EM Pickelhaube, aren't they? I remember you recently sold a much nicer/minty Reichs non-serrated cockade on eBay...
 
Still trying to revamp this kokarden section here on the forum (2018). Here is a comparison of 53mm and 48mm Prussian OR's kokarden:
View attachment 1

The one on the left is from a pre 1888 Garde Dragoner helme which is shown in the restoration section and the other is the typical kokarde found on helmets equipped with 1891 posts.


A pair of notched M91 style kokarden from my ersatz tin kit helme. Kokarden from these kit helmets in my experience, were always notched but I have only handled Prussian versions of this helmet. Again after years of collecting, notched kokarden are more often found on Saxon helmets. If anyone has a Wurtt or Saxe kit helmet, take a look at your kokarden and make a comment.
 
Hi Brian,

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about a couple of unique items you asked about in your first posting on this thread.

I see one non-serrated edge kokarden in the National Colors that goes with a Saxon kokarden which would typically be non-serrated. I've seen these specially notched hole kokarden used on filzhaube/ersatz felt helmets. I've also seen these special notched kokarden on the ersatz "kit helmets" made from pressed metal.

There's also a Prussian State kokarden with the special notched hole for the m91 side post, and I would guess this goes on a filzhaube or one of the metal ersatz kit helmets.

I have as of yet to see one of these special "notched" kokarden on an unmessed with leather body helmet. I've only seen them on the kit helmets, and the felt helmets.

Do those answers win the cigar or cookie?

All the Best,

Alan
 
You nailed it Alan! I also just checked my Prussian kit helmet....both kokarden are notched as you described. Anyone else have "V" notched kokarden which are not Saxon or Prussian? Seems to me those ersatz tin kit helmets came with Baden, Bavarian and Wurttemberg wappen.
 
Now wait a minute, are we talking a good old handmade CUBAN cigar (since they're not banned in Canada)?

Actually, you 2 confused me now. When I bought my Saxon M15 Infantry EM Pickelhaube, it came without chinstrap or cockades. I went on and got me a pair of non-serrated Saxon Kokarden from Sergio Semino and they both have that notch (see closeup below)... Would these be OK on my helmet? [-o<
SaxonHeerEMKokarden-1.jpg

SaxonHeerEMKokarden-2.jpg
 
Great post! I had thought of it too but didn't get around to doing it. Hopefully it will become a "sticky" post because it is a very complex issue. Lots and lots of fakes and repros out there. It would be good to see fakes next to originals, especially the rare kokarden for color comparison.
 
Your Saxon Kokarden are fine Ron. I would like to see a pic of the infamous Saxon landes kokarde with serrated edges. Anyone have one out there? I had an M15 Saxon OR's helmet with original serrated kokarde but had to sell it in the "Loree Divorce" melt down.
 
Hey Brian, is this what you're looking for? http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Imperial/photos/G043266.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the description, Peter says this one was worn on both the M95 and M15 pickelhauben... If this is true, what would be the difference between the latter and an M15 Saxon Infantry pickelhaube like mine fitted with the non-serrated cockades displayed above :-?
 
That is the one! Stop worrying Ronny....there is no problem. Lots of M15s have the round edge kokarden. I would speculate though that the serrated was a war time expedient. I have never seen an M95 Saxon Haube with serrated edge landes kokarde. However, I doubt that "stores" people lost any sleep over this issue!
 
Gents,

Here is my little contribution to this interesting topic:



It concerns a national cockade as well as a Bavarian state cockade for a EM95 helmet.

Best regards,

Edwin
 
Great pics Edwin. Thank you. Now we need the "silver" variation of the Bavarian Landes Kokarde. Yours has the white background but they also used a silver paint. Again I had one on a helmet but.....SOLD! I would also urge collectors to check out the colour on the back side of these kokarden. The Saxon is painted white on the rear side...the Bavarian black with a white front side. Anyone out there know the process by which these kokarden were painted??
 
I'm assuming the base (e.g. black, white, gray or silver, yellow or gold, blue, green, etc.) was dipped and the rest was hand-painted?
Here's my Bayern (Silver) and Baden (Golden) Kokarden counterparts... I know that the Baden Kokarde also came with regular flashy yellow paint, same as for Bavaria. I'm guessing they realized the latter would be cheaper to the war effort?

Surprisingly however, my Baden cockade is slightly thicker/bulges more than its Reichs mate as per the 3rd photo hereafter:

Baden%20&%20Bavarian%20Infantry%20EM%20Pickelhaube%20Kokarden%20M1891a_zps8dbfdc10.jpg

Baden%20&%20Bavarian%20Infantry%20EM%20Pickelhaube%20Kokarden%20M1891b_zpsb35906e1.jpg

Baden%20Infantry%20EM%20Pickelhaube%20Kokarden%20(Cockades)%20M1891c_zps55beec6f.jpg
 
Great topic !
Perhaps it could be a great idea to compare fakes and originals.
Thank you,
Francis
 
I cannot post pics from this mobile but a very interesting Saxe-Weimar cockade http://www.pickelhauben.net/pickelhaube/94thOR.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one had the entire community stumped for years. It was one reason I did all of that research on the minor states. Anyway Saxe -Weimar changed their color scheme And. Name in 1897. This is an old one as opposed to Brian's new one.

I have never seen any photographic evidence of the smaller Saxon serrated cockade. I am not part of the absolute school but I have seen a few pictures. I used to have one. Thought it was original and sold it to James. Police???

There is an older thread that I think Chas started where he laid out fakes and real side by side. I failed miserably to spot the problems but it was very educational.
 
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