Prussian reserve officers Haub with parade bush and case
- Thread starter MAP
- Start date
For starters don’t be blinded by how nice it looks, focus on what it is. You have a Dragoner officer style helmet with cruciform spike base and squared front visor. Those features combined with Preussen Line eagle would indicate that it is a military Beamte helmet. Beamte are fascinating helmets often misunderstood. In my opinion, it coming with a case is a negative, as sellers think a case is a positive and increase the price. At one time I had a closet full of these stupid things stacked up like cordwood. For years every helmet I sold came with a bonus free case, just to be rid of them.
MAP
Well-known member
Thanks for the quick feedback.
I agree about the cases LoL. Not something I want and won't pay extra for.
Sorry for the follow up questions but just trying to learn. So if I understand you correctly, it is a legit Beamte Haub from a Dragonet unit? Is the cross correct? I do like Beamte helmets. I find them confusing but also very interesting and at least for me, I don't think they are any less desirable to have on a shelf. While administrative, they were still part of the military establishment. I already have one that I enjoy. Not sure how others feel about them.
I was primarily interested in that it had a bush, something I don't have yet.
Is it overpriced? The last one I got was cheaper but didn't have a bush.
Here is my other Beamte
Thanks
M
I agree about the cases LoL. Not something I want and won't pay extra for.
Sorry for the follow up questions but just trying to learn. So if I understand you correctly, it is a legit Beamte Haub from a Dragonet unit? Is the cross correct? I do like Beamte helmets. I find them confusing but also very interesting and at least for me, I don't think they are any less desirable to have on a shelf. While administrative, they were still part of the military establishment. I already have one that I enjoy. Not sure how others feel about them.
I was primarily interested in that it had a bush, something I don't have yet.
Is it overpriced? The last one I got was cheaper but didn't have a bush.
Here is my other Beamte
Thanks
M
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Steve Nick
Well-known member
I agree with Tony on the carrying case issue. I have only one which sits on a shelf in the basement. It's nice to show how these helmets were stored/transported but they take up too much display area,
What I find interesting is that Beampten helmets seem to be coming out of the woodwork in numbers I've never seen before. Years ago they were seldom seen and when they were we were hard pressed to understand what they were. Is it a case of we now know what we're looking at?
Another question. Were Beampten entitled to wear parade plumes/bushes and if so who was entitled to wear what material and colours?
What I find interesting is that Beampten helmets seem to be coming out of the woodwork in numbers I've never seen before. Years ago they were seldom seen and when they were we were hard pressed to understand what they were. Is it a case of we now know what we're looking at?
Another question. Were Beampten entitled to wear parade plumes/bushes and if so who was entitled to wear what material and colours?
Jeff R
Well-known member
Seconding Steve and Tony. I'd also expect to see the small eagle/shield on a helmet like this one. "Das Deutsche Heer" by Knotel and Pietsch doesn't indicate the parade busch for any Beamte aside from the most senior of officers, so that might be a fantasy. I'm also curious is one could be a Beamte reserve officer? As Tony said - a fascinating and misunderstood field of study with precious little reference to go on.
It's indeed a lovely helmet, but a puzzling one (IMO).
It's indeed a lovely helmet, but a puzzling one (IMO).
MAP
Well-known member
Thanks guys for the information. Looking forward to additional input and feedback. If it's not 100% original, I don't want it.
@Jeff: The small eagle wasn't added till 1905 from what I remember, so this helmet would then been used before that. But I have the same question as you do about the reserve officer cross! And if there was even a reserve Beamte would the placement of the cross override the use of the small eagle?
Lots of questions!
As noted I just want to be sure it is 100% original and correct (including the bush). If so, I'm OK with not having all the answers. But it's kind of a puzzle with missing pieces in that, how do we know everything on the helmet is correct if we don't know everything about Beamte helmets?
@Jeff: The small eagle wasn't added till 1905 from what I remember, so this helmet would then been used before that. But I have the same question as you do about the reserve officer cross! And if there was even a reserve Beamte would the placement of the cross override the use of the small eagle?
Lots of questions!
As noted I just want to be sure it is 100% original and correct (including the bush). If so, I'm OK with not having all the answers. But it's kind of a puzzle with missing pieces in that, how do we know everything on the helmet is correct if we don't know everything about Beamte helmets?
John Josef
Well-known member
I always have post this by Glenn handy when I come across Beamte Pickelhauben. IMO its very valuable information and as far as I've seen no one has ever contradicted it.
"Square peak "dragoon style":
War Ministry - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
War Ministry technical officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
War Ministry Senior Staff Apothecary - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Intendance - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales *
Military Justice - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Military Construction officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Technical officials of the Technical Institute - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Apothecary officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Provisions Offices officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Garrison Administration - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Telegraph officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Clothing Offices officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Hospital officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
War Treasury field officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
* Intendance officials with the equivalence of general officers' rank wore a general officers' helmet with the small gold shield of the officials beneath the Guard star. Extremely rare I would have thought!
Round peak "infantry style"
Music Inspectors - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Veterinary officials - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Zahlmeister - Silver fittings, scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Waffenmeister - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales, spike base studs
Note. Prior to the formation of the Fortress construction officers' branch, fortress construction officials also wore the "dragoon" style helmet with silver fittings.
Regards
Glenn
Hope this helps everyone interested in the subject as much as it helped me. Again, thanks Glenn.
Here is my Beamte Helm that I've had for some time, he must have been a big boy because it fits my bucket not that I wear it around the house when doing paperwork.
"Square peak "dragoon style":
War Ministry - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
War Ministry technical officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
War Ministry Senior Staff Apothecary - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Intendance - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales *
Military Justice - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Military Construction officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Technical officials of the Technical Institute - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Apothecary officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Provisions Offices officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Garrison Administration - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Telegraph officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Clothing Offices officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Hospital officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
War Treasury field officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
* Intendance officials with the equivalence of general officers' rank wore a general officers' helmet with the small gold shield of the officials beneath the Guard star. Extremely rare I would have thought!
Round peak "infantry style"
Music Inspectors - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Veterinary officials - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Zahlmeister - Silver fittings, scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Waffenmeister - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales, spike base studs
Note. Prior to the formation of the Fortress construction officers' branch, fortress construction officials also wore the "dragoon" style helmet with silver fittings.
Regards
Glenn
Hope this helps everyone interested in the subject as much as it helped me. Again, thanks Glenn.
Here is my Beamte Helm that I've had for some time, he must have been a big boy because it fits my bucket not that I wear it around the house when doing paperwork.
MAP
Well-known member
Thanks! Yes. That is list from Glenn is a great resource. I used it for my other Beamte.
Interesting. Here is another link with Glenn's information. But in that thread, member NZEF (Mike?) shows a Beamte with a Bush, and there is a further question about "reserve" officer Beamte helmets having a reserve cross. Don't think either of these were ever clearly answered.
Interesting. Here is another link with Glenn's information. But in that thread, member NZEF (Mike?) shows a Beamte with a Bush, and there is a further question about "reserve" officer Beamte helmets having a reserve cross. Don't think either of these were ever clearly answered.
MAP
Well-known member
So gents. Thanks for the help so far.
Just looking for a confirmation of my following question.
Question: are we in agreement that the helmet as shown is an all original Beamte ( inclusive of the bush and reserve cross) but there is just not enough known information / research at this point to explain the bush and the reserve cross? Or that it's an original Beamte but the bush and reserve cross are incorrect?
Thanks
M
Just looking for a confirmation of my following question.
Question: are we in agreement that the helmet as shown is an all original Beamte ( inclusive of the bush and reserve cross) but there is just not enough known information / research at this point to explain the bush and the reserve cross? Or that it's an original Beamte but the bush and reserve cross are incorrect?
Thanks
M
MAP
Well-known member
Just a another bump. Not sure I'm ready to pull the trigger as I'm not sure what the consensus is...So I have what I think is a very simple set of questions
Help and clarification is appreciated. Thanks!
Question:
1) The helmet, as shown, is an all original Beamte ( inclusive of the bush and reserve cross) but at this time there is just not enough information / research at this point to explain the bush and the reserve cross?
Or...
2) That it's an original Beamte but the bush and reserve cross are incorrect and should not be on this helmet?
Looking forward to hopefully someone being able to answer this.
Enjoy the weekend.
M
Help and clarification is appreciated. Thanks!
Question:
1) The helmet, as shown, is an all original Beamte ( inclusive of the bush and reserve cross) but at this time there is just not enough information / research at this point to explain the bush and the reserve cross?
Or...
2) That it's an original Beamte but the bush and reserve cross are incorrect and should not be on this helmet?
Looking forward to hopefully someone being able to answer this.
Enjoy the weekend.
M
Just a couple of thoughts.
Firstly, it is possible for a Beamte helmet to have a Landwehr cross. Let me preface that statement with the fact that the vast majority of military officials were in full time “active” employment until often their late sixties or seventies. Therefore a sizeable body of reserve or Landwehr officials never existed. There were, however, two branches of officials that were encountered in reserve or Landwehr status:
Veterinary officials who were not immediately granted commissions following the creation of a corps of veterinary officers in 1910. There will still about 25 veterinary officials of the reserve/Landwehr listed in the 1914 Prussian Rangliste. (Infantry style, gold fittings).
Apothecary officials of the reserve and Landwehr (former einjährig-Apotheker). These gentlemen are not listed in the Ranglisten. (Dragoon style,silver fittings).
Frankly, I think the helmet at the top of this thread is a fantasy piece. The plume is a nonsense.
I will post a scan from the dress regulations of 1908 concerning the Landwehr cross for officials in the morning.
Regards
Glenn
Firstly, it is possible for a Beamte helmet to have a Landwehr cross. Let me preface that statement with the fact that the vast majority of military officials were in full time “active” employment until often their late sixties or seventies. Therefore a sizeable body of reserve or Landwehr officials never existed. There were, however, two branches of officials that were encountered in reserve or Landwehr status:
Veterinary officials who were not immediately granted commissions following the creation of a corps of veterinary officers in 1910. There will still about 25 veterinary officials of the reserve/Landwehr listed in the 1914 Prussian Rangliste. (Infantry style, gold fittings).
Apothecary officials of the reserve and Landwehr (former einjährig-Apotheker). These gentlemen are not listed in the Ranglisten. (Dragoon style,silver fittings).
Frankly, I think the helmet at the top of this thread is a fantasy piece. The plume is a nonsense.
I will post a scan from the dress regulations of 1908 concerning the Landwehr cross for officials in the morning.
Regards
Glenn
MAP
Well-known member
Thanks Glenn. This is exactly the feedback I was looking for. Good or Bad. Basically if there is not a broad consensus amongst the experts then I don't want a helmet that will always have a ?? hanging over it.
This is just like WW2 German camo helmets. As they are non standard, it is imperative to get a collector consensus
Appreciate the feedback and help
This is just like WW2 German camo helmets. As they are non standard, it is imperative to get a collector consensus
Appreciate the feedback and help
Hang on. Plume is added, ok. But remove plume and that is a nice pre 1905 Beamte helmet if you accept Dragoner Officer Helmet + Preussen eagle (usually) means Beamte. But for that money, and still need an officer’s spike?
Edit. Glenn please keep the factual information coming. We all benefit of course. I’m only trying to relate that 100+ years of a helmet missing a spike, has a good chance of having a replacement spike or bush screwed onto it.
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MAP
Well-known member
Thank s Tony.im certainly not interested in a project. At this stage of my life, I just want untouched original examples. I'm in no
Appreciate the feedback. Very helpful.
Interesting discussion as well.
Here is the extract from the 1908 officials' dress regulations. Interesting, that the small official eagle of the the reserve officials was worn on the Landwehr cross.
Just a thought about the plumed "dragoon" helmet. Is it just possible it a Landwehr cavalry or Landwehr "army" uniform with the wrong eagle applied?
Regards
Glenn
Just a thought about the plumed "dragoon" helmet. Is it just possible it a Landwehr cavalry or Landwehr "army" uniform with the wrong eagle applied?
Regards
Glenn
MAP
Well-known member
Thanks Glenn. So a rough translation would be:
9. Officials on leave wear the Landwehr Cross with a motto on the helmet ornamentation and on the national cockade of the cap. The Landwehr Cross is to be attached to the helmet ornamentation:
a) for reserve officials directly under the F. R.; on the Landwehr Cross the official's badge – a small heraldic eagle – in a contrasting color,
b) for Landwehr officials in front of the center of the helmet eagle.