Hessian Leib-Dragoner nr 24 Enlisted

[John Josef]

JJ - it is indeed a very (very) dark green, usually referred to as "steel green." Like many of the more nuanced colors from the era, its hard to capture in photographs. (The cap is the same one pictured in that book, btw - p. 346)

Technically, it is the same green the Bavarian Chevauleger and Uhlans used, but in practice it always seemed to run darker. And add to that the slight fashion variations depending on the year...and you have a wider spectrum. Tony has a great example on his site of cornflower blue variations, which were all over the map!

Thanks for taking the time to comment, great cap by the way.

I'm very happy to have you reaffirm my comment when comparing the green of Chevaulegers and the green used by the 24. and also choosing "very (very) dark green" to describe it.

It does run much much darker, and that's my point. there is a very noticeable difference even between Hessian units.

In my opinion at some point the very very dark green of the 24. looks identical to black. Even when side by side.

Since you know the book well, I will also mention the stark differences between even the Hessian Dragoon tunics of the 23 and the 24. that are pictured on page 360 and 361 there really is noticeable difference the 24. looking much like black in comparison.

Please no comments about the variations of "cornflower blue" that's another point of conversation or other variations it just muddies the water farther the 24. dragoons only please

I have Prussian and Baden tunics that are so dark the only real way to see the difference is to put them side by side with a pair of black pants from the time. Even the difference in my Bavarian tunics is amazing from light to dark it's certainly something worth mentioning and good topics for other threads. regards John Josef

 

[John Josef]

Jeff
Correct
this can be all over the board
Take shoulder straps for example
Dragoon Regt 7
look at the different shades of the fabric used on my examples
what I call rose / pink
how many different people used different bolts of cloth while making these straps ?View attachment 47433
Steve

Yes, there is a slight difference, but these are all very easily discernable as rosa/pink when compared to other colors someone may consider somewhat similar of the time like red, peachred, orangered, ect ect..even ponceaurot.

Nobody would have any trouble with these at all in comparison to the dark dark green of the 24. and black.

Steve can I honestly ask you if you first saw the pair of 24th boards that you posted in post 8 of this thread the bottom picture would you really say oh they are dark green? I'm just curious, thanks John

 

[KAGGR#1]

Yes, there is a slight difference, but these are all very easily discernable as rosa/pink when compared to other colors someone may consider somewhat similar of the time like red, peachred, orangered, ect ect..even ponceaurot.

Nobody would have any trouble with these at all in comparison to the dark dark green of the 24. and black.

Steve can I honestly ask you if you first saw the pair of 24th boards that you posted in post 8 of this thread the bottom picture would you really say oh they are dark green? I'm just curious, thanks John

John
An easy answer for me .This takes me back to the 1970's when I met a collector
from Perryville , Mo. named George Bush. George had been in the U S Army stationed in Germany
George was single and wanted something to do , so he started to collect I G shoulder straps .
we became collector friends .Later on George felt that he had taken the shoulder strap as far as he
could , so we worked up a deal and I bought his collection.
The Hessian D R 24 Majors pair came with his collection .
George explained to me back then , that the 2 Hessian Dragoon officers straps M 1915
had 3 different underlays on them.
1. White was their original underlay, so they retained the white
2. the dark green as for the color of their Waffenrock
3. the light blue was the new M1915 color for all Dragoon officers straps
About that time I also had in my collection an enlisted Hessian Dragoon Waffenrock
Which was also green , so for me it has always been green
The D R 24 Majors pair remain one my all time favorite pair of officers straps
Steve

 

[John Josef]

John
An easy answer for me .This takes me back to the 1970's when I met a collector
from Perryville , Mo. named George Bush. George had been in the U S Army stationed in Germany
George was single and wanted something to do , so he started to collect I G shoulder straps .
we became collector friends .Later on George felt that he had taken the shoulder strap as far as he
could , so we worked up a deal and I bought his collection.
The Hessian D R 24 Majors pair came with his collection .
George explained to me back then , that the 2 Hessian Dragoon officers straps M 1915
had 3 different underlays on them.
1. White was their original underlay, so they retained the white
2. the dark green as for the color of their Waffenrock
3. the light blue was the new M1915 color for all Dragoon officers straps
About that time I also had in my collection an enlisted Hessian Dragoon Waffenrock
Which was also green , so for me it has always been green
The D R 24 Majors pair remain one my all time favorite pair of officers straps
Steve

With all due respect Steve and that's a lot that's not really an answer because you're saying someone told you they are supposed to be green so when I see something from the 24th I say they are green.

That's the easy answer and sadly not the point I'm trying to make the point is there is a marked difference between items related to the 24th and every other state, unit and even the other Hessian Units which are all supposed to use the exact same dark green. Which by the way no one has denied yet.

I'm just going to drop it and keep my observations to myself going forward.

If it had been one item maybe even five, I'd say it's the lighting or fading and would not even have brought it up but with every example attributed to the 24th there is a noticeable difference in color by comparison. So, when you said it's dark green, I thought why not see if anyone else has noticed what I'm seeing and possibly seeing the same thing.

I really just thought it was worth bringing up I'm not saying that I've discovered something no one else has but there are always exceptions to the rule and even today new information is coming to light and if nobody brings new things up for discussion even here what is the point of a forum?

So, who knows maybe one day someone else will say or print that the 24th Dragoons actually used black instead of dark green but most likely they will say ol John Josef has lost the plot and his eyesight

 

[KAGGR#1]

Listed by Helmut Weitze

Hesse-Darmstadt World War I flat cap from the estate of the dragoon «CS» in the Leib-Dragoner-Regiment (2nd Grand Ducal Hess.) No. 24​

Location Darmstadt. Owned around 1914. The flat cap is made of dark green cloth with a white band and piping, both cockades. Inside with a brown sweatband and orange silk lining with the manufacturer "Ph. Lorz Hoflieferant Darmstadt...", the wearer's initials "CS" handwritten. Size approx. 55. In the original box of the court cap maker "Ph. Lorz". Enclosed is a photo of the soldier wearing the cap, inscribed on the back "Carl. October 1914.", as well as a field postcard from "Beverloo 14.1.15. ... Truppenplatz (Belgium)" with the signature "...Carl." Condition 2.
467297

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

>> I have Prussian and Baden tunics that are so dark the only real way to see the difference is to put them side by side with a pair of black pants from the time. Even the difference in my Bavarian tunics is amazing from light to dark it's certainly something worth mentioning and good topics for other threads.<<

Really interesting discussion John et.al. To my eye, what’s very noticeable is the enormous difference between issued and Private Purchase. Please excuse that I’m far to lazy to go undress a bunch of issued Waffenrock for a photo, but I completely agree. Stahlgrün, Dunkelblau, Dunkelgrün issued Waffenrock side-by-side are all very dark and look almost black (almost).

Here is an illustration from: Das kleine Buch vom Deutschen Heere. (1900) Lipius & Tischer. My experience is that these yearly little books are accurate. My preference is for period documentation like Bekleidungsordnung and there are several here who can help.