Isn't this the wrong plate?

poniatowski

poniatowski

Well-known member
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Saw this on Weitze today, isn't this the wrong plate for a Braunschweig helmet?

:D Ron
 
My thought as well. As others have said before, it's up to the buyer to know his shizzle in this game, no matter who the seller is. Of course, maybe there's something I don't know about with this particular helmet??? My German translation isn't all that great, so maybe I missed something in the description.

:D Ron
 
isn't this the wrong plate for a Braunschweig helmet?
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The only difference between the line front plate and the front plate on Brunswick helmets is a single word in the motto. The motto on the line plate is "Mit Gott fur Koenig und Vaterland" The motto on the Brunswick plate is "Mit Gott Fur Fuerst und Vaterland". When the skull is mounted such that it covers the center of the motto it is not possible to tell if the front plate is from a line helmet or is a proper Brusnwick plate without looking at the rear of the plate to see the entire motto.

As a side note, some experienced people who have examined the actual helmet in question are of the opinion that it is a completely correct IR92 officer's elmet.

Reservist1
 
Thanks for the info!
Still, if I were an officer, I'd make sure my very expensive, custom made, helmet had the motto above the skull as with Tony's example...

:D Ron
 
reservist1 said:
The only difference between the line front plate and the front plate on Brunswick helmets is a single word in the motto. The motto on the line plate is "Mit Gott fur Koenig und Vaterland" The motto on the Brunswick plate is "Mit Gott Fur Fuerst und Vaterland". When the skull is mounted such that it covers the center of the motto it is not possible to tell if the front plate is from a line helmet or is a proper Brusnwick plate without looking at the rear of the plate to see the entire motto.

As a side note, some experienced people who have examined the actual helmet in question are of the opinion that it is a completely correct IR92 officer's elmet.

Reservist1
Click to expand...

I must disagree. The Bandeau on the wings of a FUERST Eagle Wappen have a double fold on each side. The one at Weitze has the Bandeau on the wings of a standard Preußen line eagle Wappen. A very bad sign.
 
I am following this debate with interest. My only IR92 helmet is for an enlisted man and it does have the double fold on each side of the scroll, but did this apply to all IR92 plates, notably among officer helmets, and notably among latest models?.. Does anyone have a clue?
Bruno
 
Bruno: Very good question. I don't have an answer with respect to IR92 plates. However, to add to the discussion/confusion, line pattern front plates with the Koenig motto exist with and without the double fold in the scroll. On page 561, Volume 2 of The German Infantry from 1871 to 1914 an Oldenburg IR91 helemt is shown with a front plate having the double fold scroll. I have 3 Oldenburg infantry helmets all having Koenig plates without the double fold scroll.

The old pattern grenadier front plate (line style eagle with Koenig motto and "FWR" cypher instead of "FR") also appears to exist both with and without the double fold scroll. The double fold scroll version is most often seen. An illustration in Moritz Ruhl's Die Uniformen der Deutschen Armee, volume 2, Leipzig 1910 illustrates this style plate without the double fold scroll. Admittedly, this illustration is a drawing and not a photo of an actual plate.

Ulan regiments 1-3 also wore a front plate in the configuration of the old style grenadier plate. The double fold scroll style is by far the most common. The photographic sheets of front plates published by Moritz Ruhl show a photograph of a plate identified as Ulan regiment 1-3 without the double fold scroll.

I suppose all of the above means that the "Fuerst" front plate could exist with either style scroll.

Reservist1
 
I have certainly NEVER seen a Fuerst plate with anything other than the double wing scroll. Does anyone have a pic of the back of the plate on the helmet that started this thread?
 
Arran said:
I have certainly NEVER seen a Fuerst plate with anything other than the double wing scroll. Does anyone have a pic of the back of the plate on the helmet that started this thread?
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I will bet there is an FR, or the shape of an EK... Plus, an original IR92 Wappen will never cover the FUERST with the Totenkopf as on the Weitze example; the Totenkopf on an original is made to follow the bottom of the Bandeau perfectly.

T10.jpg


Officer

T11.jpg


Mannschaften
 
Tony without Kaiser said:
Plus, an original IR92 Wappen will never cover the FUERST with the Totenkopf
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Tony, I must disagree...
Look at the pictures below. They are from Joachim Hilsenbeck book " Deutsche Offiziershelme aus der
Kaiserzeit 1870-1918", page 124 and 125.
On the Braunschweig helmets where the word "FUERST" is not covered by the top of the skull, you will observe that the eyes of the skull always are at the same high as the place where the eagle wings and legs are joining (as on your picts). The "knot" placed at the middle of both bones is even at the same high as the middle of the "ball" in the eagle left claw.
On the officer picture, you can clearly see that the skull is placed very high on the plate. The skull eyes are at the same high as the bandeau and the bones knot has the same high as the top of the cross on the ball. I´m sure the word "FUERST" is covered by the skull on this exemple...
Philippe :salute:



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I think what you're seeing on the officer photo is the eyes appearing to be higher because of the angle of the photo and relief of the skull. Seems to me that the little bit of 'reflection' on the top of the skull is the bandeau, although it looks like a slurring of the image. :-k
In either case! ... the helmet I wondered about isn't right because of the scroll and the way it's stamped (single 'wings').

:D Ron
 
To add further examples to this interesting discussion, an IR 92 officer's helmet with the skull covering "Fuerst" in the motto is pictured on page 86 of Militarische Kopfbedeckungen der Kaiserzeit by Reiner Hermann. The photo is clear enough to show the double fold scroll. On the same page is another IR92 helmet, with the skull obscuring the majority of the word Fuerst.

Pages 160 and 161 of Imperial German Military Officers' Helmets & Head Dress by Thomas N.G. Stubbs show IR92 officer helmets with skulls that completely and partially obscure the word "Fuerst" in the banner. Both helmets have front plates with double fold scrolls.

Reservist1
 
In Reiner Herrmanns book " Militärische Kopfbedeckungen der Kaiserzeit" there also are two picts of two IR 92 helmets (one officer and one private purchase) wich have the top of the bandeau covered by the skull and they have both the correct double wing scroll...(page 86).

Philippe :salute:
 
Thank you all for these precious informations. I am currently travelling, with no access to any relevant document but as soon as I am back I will check my sources. I wonder, for instance, how is the helmet pictured in the 1932 Juncker catalogue...
In agreement with R1, my spontaneous impression - let's say my gut feeling - about this helmet was rather positive...
Bruno
 
By the way, this helmet was already for sell on Weitze for a few months. It was after a very few days quickly gone...maybe already sold? Someone not happy with it?? Second try??? Who knows? :dontknow: ...I was not the one with so much Euros in my pocket... :sad3:
Philippe :salute:
 
how is the helmet pictured in the 1932 Juncker catalogue...
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Bruno: Thanks for reminding me about the 1932 C.E. Junker catalog, I had forgotten about it. The IR92 officer helmet pictured on plate 35 has a front plate with the double fold scroll and the skull mounted so that it does not obscure the word Fuerst.

Reservist1
 
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