Isn't this the wrong plate?

Tony without Kaiser said:
Plus, an original IR92 Wappen will never cover the FUERST with the Totenkopf
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Let me change that to every example I have seen that I actually believed to be an original, had the Totenkopf cranium perfectly outlining the bottom of the Bandeau.

Its funny, I can almost hear all those reference pages being frantically flipped through as we all dig through our books! :study:
 
Tony without Kaiser said:
Its funny, I can almost hear all those reference pages being frantically flipped through as we all dig through our books! :study:
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I just thought that was the wind bowing harder through the trees.
 
Its funny, I can almost hear all those reference pages being frantically flipped through as we all dig through our books!
Click to expand...

And a useful exercise it is because while searching for one piece of information we usually find something else that adds to our continuing education about the Imperial German army and its equipment.

Reservist1
 
Yeah, the simply collecting of Pickelhauben would be boring without those great polemics :lurk: on this forum. It makes our hobby double exciting and suspenseful. :cyclopsani:
Philippe :salute:
 
Not being an expert at any of this, just a hobbyist who wants to learn more and gird himself for picking out mistakes at shows and such, I can only say this.... wait for it :???: ...
As a former soldier who was VERY picky about his uniform and wasn't averse to spending money in order to have my own helmets, boots, web gear and such, I would NEVER have allowed a private purchase helmet (or issue for that matter) to have the motto covered.
I have to side with Tony on this one and say that if the top bandeau is covered, the helmet was probably tampered with, or owned by some pretty shoddy soldiers. Just my two cents.
I may be totally wrong, of course, because who knows what they issued when the need arose... :-" :-"

:D Ron
 
I would suppose that it's possible that some might want the 'Penninsula' bandeau to show more than the "Fuerst" ... :-k if they're ordering their own. To me, if I were purchasing the helmet back then, I wouldn't accept it with the bandeau at top covered. hmmmm... But then, what I'd have done is totally moot to this discussion... so I guess that line of thought goes nowhere.

Thanks for sharing the photos!

:D Ron
 
I think, with Weitze or anybody else, it's good to know your stuff so you can spot irregularities (even outright fakes). That's the great part of this site, a lot of knowledge in a single site. I wouldn't know one pilot's badge from another (which is why I don't collect them!), but this helmet was obviously ailing from something by way of the Wappen, so I thought I'd bring it up. I'm glad it's created such a good discussion and some examples of different placement of the skull, etc. It would take an entire PhD paper for somebody to research all of the manufacturers, differences in similar manufactured objects (such as the skulls) for even just this regiment. If you look at Joe's photos, you can see the skulls are shaped differently, but both original. It's sad to think of all of the knowledge that was blown up or burnt during the World Wars.

:D Ron
 
reservist1 said:
The old pattern grenadier front plate (line style eagle with Koenig motto and "FWR" cypher instead of "FR") also appears to exist both with and without the double fold scroll. The double fold scroll version is most often seen. An illustration in Moritz Ruhl's Die Uniformen der Deutschen Armee, volume 2, Leipzig 1910 illustrates this style plate without the double fold scroll. Admittedly, this illustration is a drawing and not a photo of an actual plate.
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The double fold preußische Bandeau (for comparison with Tony's excellent photos of the double fold Fuerst Bandeau):

FWR.jpg


poniatowski said:
I would suppose that it's possible that some might want the 'Penninsula' bandeau to show more than the "Fuerst" ...
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As with the Fürstum regiments granted Landes Wappenstern (IRs 91, 93, 94, 95, 96, 153) , I suspect the IR 92 Totenkopf was intended to take visual precedence over the Helmadler, and, consequently, the Peninsula Helm Band would be an object for prominent display (should it ride too low, it would be obscured by the chin scales). Nevertheless, the exact placement of the Wappen boils down to the location where the attachment holes and posts were prepped. Likewise, private purchase helmets with Wappensterne partially (or completely) obscure the Fuerst/Koenig segment of the bandeau.

Oldenburg dragoon officer with Koenig largely obscured:

DR91wappen.jpg


Issued IR 94 and 96 examples:

P1011057.jpg


PICT0403.jpg


Personally, this would not concern me respecting an IR 92 helmet, but I would think long and hard before investing in a Braunschweiger with a Linieadler prussian bandeau.

Great discussion!
 
In the case of the 'star', I think the partially, or even mostly obscured bandeau is enhanced by the star (in art we'd call it creating visual interest or 'mystery', since parts of it are still visible... think of a strip tease.. ;) ) and I agree that the Peninsula bandeau would be important to the members of the regiment, but then the motto would be too. So, I still wonder about obscuring it completely. For example, to me, it's like placing your "Ranger" or "Airborne" or "Special Forces" (and let's not forget "Sapper"!) tab over, rather than above, your unit patch. It's just not done. So again, my personal opinion counts for zilch in reality, but that's the way I'm thinking of things here.
I agree... fun discussion.

:D Ron
 
This one is also on Weitze:

https://www.weitze.net/detail/57/Braunschweig_Pickelhaube_fuer_Zahlmeister_im_Infanterie_Regiment_Nr_92__158857.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and is also on a Prussian "Koenig". Interestingly, he pictures this one off the helmet. I'd love to get a really good shot of the front and back of both skulls to see what they're like. Could there be a better generation of fakes out?
 
:greentank: I saw that helmet last year at SOS. I was not convinced. I believe Jim T. Actually owned it and returned it. :guns:
 
Not only the plate, but did you notice how the manufacturer wrinkled the leather inside of the dome!? No wonder the lacquer is chipping! I think the helmet Arran posted is a pretty bad example all 'round. It's too bad too, because Weitze has plenty of helmets / artifacts to sell without putting junk on line. [-( I wonder why they'd do that, it damages the reputation of their business and can't be worth the loss of trust in Euros... :-k

:D Ron
 
The reverse of an original IR92 eagle Wappen with a "FUERST" Bandeau with a blank chest; there is no FR on the chest as on a standard Preußen Line Eagle. You can also see the furled Bandeau on the wings.

dbh79h.jpg
 
poniatowski said:
Not only the plate, but did you notice how the manufacturer wrinkled the leather inside of the dome!? No wonder the lacquer is chipping! I think the helmet Arran posted is a pretty bad example all 'round. It's too bad too, because Weitze has plenty of helmets / artifacts to sell without putting junk on line. [-( I wonder why they'd do that, it damages the reputation of their business and can't be worth the loss of trust in Euros... Ron
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Ron, in my opinion, that is an original Paymaster's Pickelhaube Weitze has and that is an original superb IR92 officer's Totenkopf. The question is, what is it doing on a Preußen line Paymaster's eagle Wappen? The buyer would have to play the rationalization game "well.... a Paymaster 'could' have been posted to IR92 and added the Totenkopf blah blah blah..." which I would rather not do. If I have to explain something, I just don't buy it.
 
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