Kürassier - opinions sought

Maple Creek

Active member
This helmet has been offered to me. It's supposed to be an out-of-the-woodwork War Bond type thing, but there are several things that look irregular to me. Does anybody think this has a chance of being original?

I appreciate your help.

Mark D.
 
There is a list of reference books somewhere in this fine forum...
This is a "No Go": :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

Francis
 
Khukri said:
There is a list of reference books somewhere in this fine forum...
This is a "No Go": :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

Francis


This is a legit M15 Kurassier helmet, with the correct Kurassier eagle, that has just been "over-worked".
The main issue is that all the grey paint is gone (for me, this should be enough not to buy it).
The inner side of the "tail" should be painted black, not green.
I cannot tell on pictures of this quality if the cockades are genuine or not.
The liner seems to be original...
Overall, in my opinion this model is not rare enough not to go for the very best quality...

Bruno
 
Hi Francis and Bruno, Thanks for these opinions. I think most collectors would take one look and assume this is a complete fake. According to the seller, it came from the US War Department and he's provided the attached documentation with an interesting provenance story. Of course, you have to be cautious with this kind of thing, but I'm inclined to believe this particular story.

It think what we've got here is a basically an original piece that was reworked circa 1919 to create a special presentation piece to a friend of the War Department. It may have been reworked subsequently as well.

The most interesting thing about the piece, really, is the War Department documentation, translated from script to typed format in the second document below. It's a real period piece complete with hype and hyperbole.

I'm assuming that the silver trim and silvered eagle are not right for this piece unless there is some variation on these things that I'm not aware of. I also noticed the green paint incorrectly on the lobster cape portion.

Francis, I think I can make out a size marking at the tip of the tail on the trim in the usual place. I'm working of a limited set of poor cell phone pictures, so don't know about other stamps.

I'll make an offer to the seller and will let you know if I land the piece.

Cheers,

Mark

911car said:
Khukri said:
There is a list of reference books somewhere in this fine forum...
This is a "No Go": :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

Francis


This is a legit M15 Kurassier helmet, with the correct Kurassier eagle, that has just been "over-worked".
The main issue is that all the grey paint is gone (for me, this should be enough not to buy it).
The inner side of the "tail" should be painted black, not green.
I cannot tell on pictures of this quality if the cockades are genuine or not.
The liner seems to be original...
Overall, in my opinion this model is not rare enough not to go for the very best quality...

Bruno
 
The Patton Museum has or had a similar helmet brought back by the General (wrong cockades).



I personally think that the one you have offered to you still doesn't look right, even with the paperwork. The shape of the front edge of the cape and thickness of the trim makes me think of current repro's. However, that being said, what markings are on it? Any manufacturer's marks? If not, I'd let this one pass.

:D Ron
 
Maple Creek said:
I'm assuming that the silver trim and silvered eagle are not right for this piece

Will a magnet stick to the eagle? If yes, then it is an M1915 steel eagle that has been polished so all the gray is gone.
 
That document is great.

"...the pride, arrogance and overbearing self confidence of the Hun" indeed!
 
Despite everybody's advice, I went ahead and bought the thing. I didn't spend an arm and a leg, but it wasn't a total steal either. I thought it was cool and I wanted to have a close look so I bought it, ok? :) . So here's a description...

It’s a Model 1915 Mannschaften or other ranks Kurassier pickelhaube. The helmet was given to a Mr. Alexander who appears to have been a big patron of war bonds. The helmet came to me via the grandson of the Mr. Alexander’s chauffeur who was given the piece by his employer. According to the grandson Mr. Alexander was the owner of a brokerage firm.

The helmet is in its original c1919 condition. To make a special presentation piece for somebody who probably purchased a lot of war bonds, the helmet was spruced up. This was accomplished by removing the helmet hardware and nickel plating the shell and front plate. The interior was repainted black on the dome and green on the visor and cape. The kokarden, chinstrap and liner are their original factory state. The wappen is the correct kurassier type.

The helmet is dated 1916. The manufacturer stamp is partly obscured, but reads, "...AMASCHI..." It's marked "56" on the back trim.

The helmet comes with several photocopies of the original letter. Unfortunately the original is lost. The hard-to-read hand written letter was helpfully transcribed in a typed version for easy reading. Here’s the content full of early post-war hyperbole and misinformation:

“Dear Mr. Alexander: These helmets are rather rare. They may have considerable historic value someday, and I thought you might care to have one in your office as a war memento. They are authentic. They were captured by American troops in Coblenz, where they were stored for officers’ use in the victorious march through Paris which never came off. In a sense they are even more significance (sic) than the German trench helmet, in that they typify so well the pride, arrogance and overbearing self confidence of the Hun. Sincerely yours, Guy Emerson May 15, 1919”


It not an officer’s helmet and it was stored along with about 20,000 other pickelhaubes in Coblenz not for a Paris victory parade, but because by the time of their manufacture in the middle of the war, they were obsolete.

According to the Treasury Department letterhead, Guy Emerson was Vice-Director in Charge of Publicity and War Savings for the Liberty Loan Committee/War Savings Committee of the Government Loan Organization, Treasury Department, Second Federal Reserve District. And no, I didn’t make this up. You can look at the letterhead yourself. How would you like that as a title? “Hi. I’m Guy Emerson, Vice-Director blah-blah-blah…” It occurred to me that Mr. Emerson, who was responsible for war bond publicity, might be the very individual who was responsible for bringing all those nice unissued Coblenz pickelhaubes to the US and distributing them to war bond purchasers so that we pickelhaube collectors could find them in attics a hundred years later. Better treat the guy with a degree of respect.

A nice feature of this helmet is that it came with an old hat box, possibly from the company that modified the helmet for Mr. Alexander. At any rate, thought the whole thing was cool.

Mark D.
 
Are you sure it's plated? I'm not an expert on plating, but I think it would be difficult to plate just the outside and leave the inside original. Note also that the inside of the spike base appears original, but the exterior is bright. I think it more likely that the entire exterior of the helmet was merely buffed and polished.
Steve
 
I think Steve is right. I work with a lot of steel, cleaning, smoothing, polishing and this looks polished. Some photos even show what looks like polishing compound around the trim edges (or is that wax?) Also, your photos look much better than the others, a nice looking helmet!

:D Ron
 
Hi Ron and Steve, It is a nice looking piece, no? I'm pretty sure it was plated, not polished. The interior looks original except for the green painted cape, but the entire interior has been repainted. You can see bright metal shining through scratches in the paint. So I think the thing was stripped down, nickel plated through out and reassembled. The spike and base were given the same treatment. If you look inside the spike base from the interior of the helmet, you can see the original field grey finish. You can see this in one of the photos I posted.

Cheers,

Mark D.

poniatowski said:
I think Steve is right. I work with a lot of steel, cleaning, smoothing, polishing and this looks polished. Some photos even show what looks like polishing compound around the trim edges (or is that wax?) Also, your photos look much better than the others, a nice looking helmet!

:D Ron
 
I find it difficult to believe the helmet is plated. The finish on the inside of the spike base looks original to me. From my limited knowledge of plating, I think it would be hard to plate just part of a piece. What does the back of the wappen look like? I suppose anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing someone would plate the helmet thereby killing its collector value, and then go to the trouble of repainting the inside to duplicate the original finish. But you have the helmet in hand, so you would know best. In my opinion, if the helmet is merely buffed and polished, it can be restored to be presentable fairly easily. If it's plated, it would have value only as a decorator.
Steve
 
If it was plated many years ago, to make it 'nicer' as a presentation piece, there wasn't much collector value on it. As a matter of fact, a great majority of people enjoyed destroying artifacts from 'the Hun'. My grandparents had an M16 'trench helmet' turned into a planter, as did thousands of others. (they trashed it before I was born.. no value to it what-so-ever)

We have to remember what Americans have done to 'collector pieces' over the decades: melted down an A7V tank, destroyed the prototype of the M4 Sherman, sunk Yamamoto's flagship in an A-bomb test, B-17's, P-38's, only a handful saved etc. etc. The US, as a whole, doesn't have a good record of historical conservation or foresight.

I still have my doubts about plating. All of the nickel plating I've seen was like a mirror. However, as stated, you're the one with it in your hands, not us. :)

:D Ron
 
Hi Steve, I thing Ron's got the right idea with this one. In 1919 people weren't thinking, "Gee, collectors aren't going to like that 100 years from now." I've seen these helmets used for target practice and I'm sure they were abused in many backyard war games, used for flower pots, etc. In this case they just wanted to assemble an attractive presentation piece for an important client. The letter says, "This may have considerable collector value someday..." The irony is that the collector value would have been greater if they had just left the danged thing alone. Oh well, I think it's still kind of cool, but more as a historical piece that is a memento from the war bond drives and a reflection of public sentiment at the time "arrogant Hun" and all that stuff.

I'll try to get better pictures of some of the detail so you can see why I think this was plated throughout.

Cheers,

Mark D.

ottodog8 said:
I find it difficult to believe the helmet is plated. The finish on the inside of the spike base looks original to me. From my limited knowledge of plating, I think it would be hard to plate just part of a piece. What does the back of the wappen look like? I suppose anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing someone would plate the helmet thereby killing its collector value, and then go to the trouble of repainting the inside to duplicate the original finish. But you have the helmet in hand, so you would know best. In my opinion, if the helmet is merely buffed and polished, it can be restored to be presentable fairly easily. If it's plated, it would have value only as a decorator.
Steve
 
Maple Creek said:
Hi Steve, I thing Ron's got the right idea with this one. In 1919 people weren't thinking, "Gee, collectors aren't going to like that 100 years from now." I've seen these helmets used for target practice and I'm sure they were abused in many backyard war games, used for flower pots, etc. In this case they just wanted to assemble an attractive presentation piece for an important client. The letter says, "This may have considerable collector value someday..." The irony is that the collector value would have been greater if they had just left the danged thing alone. Oh well, I think it's still kind of cool, but more as a historical piece that is a memento from the war bond drives and a reflection of public sentiment at the time "arrogant Hun" and all that stuff.

I'll try to get better pictures of some of the detail so you can see why I think this was plated throughout.

Cheers,

Mark D.

ottodog8 said:
I find it difficult to believe the helmet is plated. The finish on the inside of the spike base looks original to me. From my limited knowledge of plating, I think it would be hard to plate just part of a piece. What does the back of the wappen look like? I suppose anything is possible, but I have a hard time believing someone would plate the helmet thereby killing its collector value, and then go to the trouble of repainting the inside to duplicate the original finish. But you have the helmet in hand, so you would know best. In my opinion, if the helmet is merely buffed and polished, it can be restored to be presentable fairly easily. If it's plated, it would have value only as a decorator.
Steve

We did something similar here in Australia. Troops broght so many helmets back that the Australian War Memorial auctioned them off for use as coalscuttles, flower planters, etc in the 1920s.
 
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