Ostasiatisches Expeditionskorps 1903,Schutztruppen
- Thread starter gino1
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Kaiser Wilhelm II
Well-known member
@Peter_Suciu Might know.
John Josef
Well-known member
I saw this one pop up for sale yesterday and was checking it out. It's not something I have seen enough of to really feel comfortable with, but I liked the makers mark in the sweatband.
I will admit that over the many years I've grown very cautious. I found this part of the markings to be a bit strange it looks like it was either stamped after the rip was already there or the ink bled through which is not the case in any other location.
Also, all the stamps look to all have the same amount of color fade and wear which make one think they may have all been done at the same time. Like I mentioned I don't know enough about them, but I also always thought they were cloth covered and not painted.
Just my observations which I admit could be totally wrong.
I will be interested to see what Peter has to say. He literally wrote the book.
I will admit that over the many years I've grown very cautious. I found this part of the markings to be a bit strange it looks like it was either stamped after the rip was already there or the ink bled through which is not the case in any other location.
Also, all the stamps look to all have the same amount of color fade and wear which make one think they may have all been done at the same time. Like I mentioned I don't know enough about them, but I also always thought they were cloth covered and not painted.
Just my observations which I admit could be totally wrong.
I will be interested to see what Peter has to say. He literally wrote the book.
Peter_Suciu
Well-known member
I really don't claim to be an expert on anything. I have just had a long fascination with sun/pith helmets. That said, I can comment on a few things.
First, I've never seen anything like this helmet before, but there is a first time for everything.
Tropical helmets were produced by small shops throughout Europe as much for commercial sales as for the military. What is fascinating is the lack of standards and the sheer number of patterns that existed in the 19th century.
As for this particular helmet, it appears to be crudely made, and it has been painted at some point. That doesn’t make much sense to me, but without seeing it in person, I can’t really say why it may have been painted. Blanco and pipe clay were used at the time, not paint.
I agree with John that the one stamp may have been done after the rip was already there. I have never seen ink bleed through to cork so precisely. In fact, I believe the stamps are all fakes, done much later. These are too "official" for a pattern we haven't seen.
If this helmet were $200 or even $300, I would be tempted to buy it as a curiosity and for study. I don't know where it is for sale, so I don't know the price, but I imagine it is much more. It may be a variation of the Bortfeldt pattern helmet, or it could be an attempt to counterfeit a Bortfeldt helmet.
One thought that crossed my mind was whether this was for a past movie production. I've seen replica sun helmets made of cork from the 1960s and 1970s. Even in the 1980s, British sun helmets were made of cork, but today they are made of fiberglass and foam. In my opinion, this is an old fake.
First, I've never seen anything like this helmet before, but there is a first time for everything.
Tropical helmets were produced by small shops throughout Europe as much for commercial sales as for the military. What is fascinating is the lack of standards and the sheer number of patterns that existed in the 19th century.
As for this particular helmet, it appears to be crudely made, and it has been painted at some point. That doesn’t make much sense to me, but without seeing it in person, I can’t really say why it may have been painted. Blanco and pipe clay were used at the time, not paint.
I agree with John that the one stamp may have been done after the rip was already there. I have never seen ink bleed through to cork so precisely. In fact, I believe the stamps are all fakes, done much later. These are too "official" for a pattern we haven't seen.
If this helmet were $200 or even $300, I would be tempted to buy it as a curiosity and for study. I don't know where it is for sale, so I don't know the price, but I imagine it is much more. It may be a variation of the Bortfeldt pattern helmet, or it could be an attempt to counterfeit a Bortfeldt helmet.
One thought that crossed my mind was whether this was for a past movie production. I've seen replica sun helmets made of cork from the 1960s and 1970s. Even in the 1980s, British sun helmets were made of cork, but today they are made of fiberglass and foam. In my opinion, this is an old fake.
John Josef
Well-known member
Hi Peter,
It's on German Ebay there are several more photos in the listing which will help a bit, I also like the look of the markings on the air vent.
Peter my friend when you know more than everyone else and people pay to read what you have to say. I'd say that makes you an expert, but I really appreciate your humble approach. It's really refreshing and a reason I really like this forum; opinions are not presented as fact.
When I last looked today it was up to 111 Euros.
It's on German Ebay there are several more photos in the listing which will help a bit, I also like the look of the markings on the air vent.
Peter my friend when you know more than everyone else and people pay to read what you have to say. I'd say that makes you an expert, but I really appreciate your humble approach. It's really refreshing and a reason I really like this forum; opinions are not presented as fact.
When I last looked today it was up to 111 Euros.
Peter_Suciu
Well-known member
As I mentioned, it could be a civilian helmet, dressed up. Here is a British advert from 1887.
GreatWarGreatMilitaria
Active member
Good day everyone,
I believe this is genuine 1904 field green/grey sun helmet. It was clearly painted at some point which is not original. The 1904 model had 4 fabric panels on the crown of the helmet as opposed to the 1900 model which had 6 panels. It also had that more British looking puggaree (criss crossed fabric) added. This was never seen on German made helmets. The 1903 stamp is seen on 1904 models as you can see from an example I own below. The ink also contained some sort of chemical which breaks down the fabric causing the splits. This is also commonly seen. I believe The stamp on the cork was caused by a pre-existing rip that was stamped into. The leather head band with the Ludwig bortfeldt logo is the one seen on the 1904 model vs the more elaborate stamp on the 1900 model. The logo impression has the same fine horizontal texture seen in the original.
The example on eBay is pretty rough for sure. I’m wondering if it was painted and used as a stage piece at some point. I heard that was pretty common after the First World War. British play houses would stock original uniforms in there costume department and modify them to whatever their needs were.
Cheers Jay
I believe this is genuine 1904 field green/grey sun helmet. It was clearly painted at some point which is not original. The 1904 model had 4 fabric panels on the crown of the helmet as opposed to the 1900 model which had 6 panels. It also had that more British looking puggaree (criss crossed fabric) added. This was never seen on German made helmets. The 1903 stamp is seen on 1904 models as you can see from an example I own below. The ink also contained some sort of chemical which breaks down the fabric causing the splits. This is also commonly seen. I believe The stamp on the cork was caused by a pre-existing rip that was stamped into. The leather head band with the Ludwig bortfeldt logo is the one seen on the 1904 model vs the more elaborate stamp on the 1900 model. The logo impression has the same fine horizontal texture seen in the original.
The example on eBay is pretty rough for sure. I’m wondering if it was painted and used as a stage piece at some point. I heard that was pretty common after the First World War. British play houses would stock original uniforms in there costume department and modify them to whatever their needs were.
Cheers Jay
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GreatWarGreatMilitaria
Active member
Peter_Suciu
Well-known member
I respect your opinion on the helmet Jay. I still have some questions, but the added photos help tell a fuller story. I still wouldn't spend a lot on it.
GreatWarGreatMilitaria
Active member
Sold today for $530 + $55 shipping to the US
Peter_Suciu
Well-known member
I wouldn't have paid that price for it.
The puggaree really threw me because it distorted the shape, making the dome seem shallower than I would expect. There are still too many things I don't like about it, and I wish I could see it in person.
The puggaree really threw me because it distorted the shape, making the dome seem shallower than I would expect. There are still too many things I don't like about it, and I wish I could see it in person.
GreatWarGreatMilitaria
Active member
GreatWarGreatMilitaria
Active member
Looking at it further, I think the paint was cleaned off and then stained a deeper grey color.
That's quite a transformation. Scary to think that without the "before" pictures it would be hard to know just how much this piece has been messed with.
CLOVIS 57
Well-known member
Here is my critical analysis:
--- Troppenhelm helmets were used in West Africa. They are also found in Romania. But I have never seen this type of helmet in Southeast Asia, apart from the Bortfeld and Shako helmets. These are rarely marked. I find the markings present here excessive, especially the "Schutztruppen" markings (marks indicating membership in a military unit). They resemble educational stamps… intended to justify a high price.
Troppenhelm for Sud-West-Africa diplomat : No problem with identification.
Bortfeldt : no problem.
Troppenhelm "Africa". It was on these Troppenhelm helmets of the Schutztruppen Africa, It is on these models that there is a possibility of fraud as above.
In Africa, (and not in China to my knowledge), captured French or English colonial helmets may have been used by the German Empire.
***French colonial helmet M1896, taken from Cameroon
***Wolseley English, taken in Sudan. BEWARE.
When it's a German Troppenhelm helmet, there's no problem.
However, caution is advised with French or British colonial helmets. And above all, such a helmet should not cost as much as a good Bortfeldt!
These helmets are not my specialty, so I say this under the control of the enthusiast(s) and specialist(s).
--- Troppenhelm helmets were used in West Africa. They are also found in Romania. But I have never seen this type of helmet in Southeast Asia, apart from the Bortfeld and Shako helmets. These are rarely marked. I find the markings present here excessive, especially the "Schutztruppen" markings (marks indicating membership in a military unit). They resemble educational stamps… intended to justify a high price.
Troppenhelm for Sud-West-Africa diplomat : No problem with identification.
Bortfeldt : no problem.
Troppenhelm "Africa". It was on these Troppenhelm helmets of the Schutztruppen Africa, It is on these models that there is a possibility of fraud as above.
In Africa, (and not in China to my knowledge), captured French or English colonial helmets may have been used by the German Empire.
***French colonial helmet M1896, taken from Cameroon
***Wolseley English, taken in Sudan. BEWARE.
When it's a German Troppenhelm helmet, there's no problem.
However, caution is advised with French or British colonial helmets. And above all, such a helmet should not cost as much as a good Bortfeldt!
These helmets are not my specialty, so I say this under the control of the enthusiast(s) and specialist(s).
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gino1
Well-known member
Hello, here on eBay there seems to be a better version and another one, unfortunately the price is also higher.
Tropenhelm Ostasien kammermäßig - casque a pointe-spikehelmet-Pickelhaube | eBay.de
Entdecke Tropenhelm Ostasien kammermäßig - casque a pointe-spikehelmet-Pickelhaube in großer Auswahl ✓ Vergleichen Angebote und Preise ✓ Online kaufen bei eBay.de ✓ Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
www.ebay.de
Khukri
Well-known member
More pictures??Hello, here on eBay there seems to be a better version and another one, unfortunately the price is also higher.
Tropenhelm Ostasien kammermäßig - casque a pointe-spikehelmet-Pickelhaube | eBay.de
Entdecke Tropenhelm Ostasien kammermäßig - casque a pointe-spikehelmet-Pickelhaube in großer Auswahl ✓ Vergleichen Angebote und Preise ✓ Online kaufen bei eBay.de ✓ Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!www.ebay.de
View attachment 71098View attachment 71099
Thx,
Dank je!
Francis