Puzzle, two maker marks in one helmet dome??

J

JayKay

New member
Hi Guys,

I try to determine the history of my simple OR Prussian. helmet.
The stange thing is that there are two maker marks in one dome :-k , also BJA XVIII so it is repaired.

Thanks to the splendid site of the Colonel I was able to determine the makers stamps.

There is one stamp of the maker Ernst Siegemund from Dresden date 1915
The other stamp is from Mitteldeutsche Gerber & Riemenfabrik of Neu Isenburg (near Frankfurt aM) the date is not visible.

Question to you guys, is it possible that the BJAXVIII outsourced some repair work to MG&R.
Or do you have another explanation how two different maker marks end up on one helmet.

Greets,
JayKay

here are the pictures

https://www.flickr.com/photos/146721252@N04/31428786994/in/dateposted-public/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146721252@N04/32270350355/in/dateposted-public/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146721252@N04/32270352505/in/dateposted-public/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.flickr.com/photos/146721252@N04/31894062450/in/dateposted-public/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Don't know about this, but some of the US M-1 helmet liners had two maker's stamps in them. One maker made the shell and the other installed the webbing.
 
The stamps are not in the liner, but close to eachother in the shell as you can see in the picture. Neu Isenburg is 470kilometers away from Dresden so I dont think these two makers worked together.

JayKay
 
The US M-1 helmet is actually two helmets. A steel outer one some times called a pot and a fiberglass inter shell with the webbing affixed. This inter shell helmet is called the liner. So let me restate using terminology that matches the Pickelhaube; There are two maker stamps, one is the maker of the bowl and the other the firm that installed the lining. Both stamps are next to each other in the top of the bowl.
 
aicusv said:
The US M-1 helmet is actually two helmets. A steel outer one some times called a pot and a fiberglass inter shell with the webbing affixed. This inter shell helmet is called the liner. So let me restate using terminology that matches the Pickelhaube; There are two maker stamps, one is the maker of the bowl and the other the firm that installed the lining. Both stamps are next to each other in the top of the bowl.
Click to expand...

First, Welcome to the forum!

Not to get too far off topic, since I've no clue as to why there would be two maker marks on a Pickelhaube (unless one manufacturer made too many shells and sent some to another for final assembly, or couldn't get Wappen and other fittings), but the reason for the M1's fiber liner is something like spaced armor on the gun shield of a light artillery piece, and was unique when it was developed. If there was a grazing shot that penetrated the steel, the bullet was supposed to deform a little, then have the shock taken up by the liner. This actually did work in some cases, such as grazing shots, bullet splinters and shrapnel. However, a flat shot would naturally penetrate both the 'pot' and liner, as well as the wearer. The liners were hot-pressed much more like the vulcan fiber Pickelhaube, US tanker helmet dome or a miner's helmet, rather than fiber glass, which is cold layered, then heats as it cures. (As a matter of fact, one of the early manufacturers of liners, MSA or Mine Safety Appliances, did make miner's helmets).
Other than for personal use, there was no real attempt to keep liners and pots matched. At turn in, they'd be tossed into a pile and damaged components separated and replaced or rematched with others. So, just like a Pickelhaube, where one company made the shell, another the wappen and such, the M1 would also be assembled with components from different manufacturers.
It's another fascinating aspect of the helmet collecting hobby, Pots and liners (according to type and manufacturer), painted steel, personalized liners, etc. I have all of the steel pots ( 'kevlars' and 'tankers') that I used other than those for basic and artillery training, when I didn't know enough about the system to be able to 'swap out' one bought at a surplus or QM supply store for turn in.

:D Ron
 
Actually from what I understand about the double stamped M-1 liners, is the shell were surplus from an earlier contract and then repurchased during the Korean War and assembled.
 
aicusv said:
Actually from what I understand about the double stamped M-1 liners, is the shell were surplus from an earlier contract and then repurchased during the Korean War and assembled.
Click to expand...

I won't argue with that.

:D Ron
 
Jay Kay: Welcome, I have not seen this double stamping before but I would suggest that one manufacturer had some surplus shells for sale and they were bought by the second company who completed them and stamped over the first company's mark. The second ink stamp is obviously done "over" the first one.
 
Thanks B.Loree :thumb up: :
That is a plausible theory, and would explain why the MG&R Neu Isenburg stamp seems to have no date.
The over stamp from Dresden is then issued 1915 after they finished the helmet.
Im curious if there are more (issued) helmets around with two maker stamps.

JayKay :D
 
I have never seen one previously. I am not a fan of the theory about the Dresden firm. Could be but it does not fit real well for me.
 
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