Reuss

911car said:
this Pickelhaube was probably worn by some Unteroffizier.
Click to expand...

For sure Bruno, this scarce Feldwebel Reuss cockade is the best proof that the wearer had this special rank, obviously already at the mobilisation!

This kind of Reich Feldwebel cokade would fit perfectly at the other side:



However, wartime changed a lot of things that were quite regular in peace time, especially for those EM who promoted to Portepee Unteroffizier during the war. As the Überzug was always worn in the field, it was impossible to see the cockades on the helmet to determinate the rank of the soldier. Much quicker and easier to look at the uniform (shoulder boards, collar, cuff). So cockades were not so much important anymore.

One helmet of mine is illustrating this wartime evolution. The wearer Anton BICKEL was a Kriegsfreiwilliger (volunteer) and was mobilised on the 8.8.14 at the 2/JR125 (I.B.). He got this helmet, maker stamped J.M. ECKART ULM and dated 1914. This helmet was new and has never been worn by another guy before.

As the prussian Kriegsstammrollen were destroyed during WWII, the Württemberg (and Baden) are still existing and can be consulted by everybody.
We are learning a lot of precious informations there. Anton BICKEL was wounded two times, one time in Messines late 1914 and a second time on the eastern frontduring the attack of the railway station of Paßjecki (august 1915). Before the war, he was already allowed and provided to make his active duty as a OYV. But the mobilisation came before. BICKEL promoted first to the rank of Gefreiter and then Unteroffizier (April 1915). Early 1916, BICKEL had to follow an officer-aspirant formation during three months in Germany (Münsterlager). April 1916 he was promoted to aspirant and then to Vizefeldwebel on the 11.5.16. He was killed in action three months later at the Somme, near Ginchy and Delville Wood....And his helmet is still wearing the normal EM cokades that have never been replaced...No time, wartime lack of thoses special cockades or simply no need to change them because they are simply hidden by the Überzug.











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And all is matching with the mentions in the Verlustlisten too:

Wounded in Messines as a Kriegsfreiwilliger:
http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/420909

Wounded in Paßjecki as an Unteroffizier (without Portepee!):
http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/1372527

First missing at the Somme as a Vizefeldwebel:
http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/2445509

Not missing anymore but k.i.a:
http://des.genealogy.net/search/show/4693679

Philippe
:wink:
 
Very interesting information Philippe. Anton Bickel was killed by the end of 1916, most likely wearing a Stahlhelm. I wonder where Pickelhauben were kept during the battle. Did soldiers leave them in some depot before marching to the frontline? Did they keep a steel helmet and a spiked helmet till the end of the war, or was the latter rapidly abandoned? I realize I have a serious lack of knowledge here....
 
I’m sorry, hope I may correct you Philippe :? On the top of your Kriegsstammrolle is written „Anton Hans Rickel“. An example for Kurrent „B“ is shown on the 2nd sheet, the 1st letter at the right column (The word is „Besitzt“). It seems your guy Anton Bickel is another one. :(
 
Gentlemen, it is confusing (at least to me) - the letters of the alphabet in old cursive handwriting, especially in German, are often difficult to identify. I'm pretty sure though (but not certain!) that in the handwritten documents posted by Philippe, the name is indeed Bickel - not Rickel.

Look at the second document, the placename "Noyelles sous Bellone". The capital B in Bellone is exactly the same as the capital in Bickel, and in the placename there can't be any misunderstanding on account of there only being a "Noyelles sous Bellone" in France - not a "Noyelles sous Rellone"... although the German who wrote the document made a spelling mistake: actually it's "Noyelles sous Bellonne" with "nn".

Bloody confusing, this old cursive handwriting. Nevertheless I am pretty sure that the bloke in the handwritten text is named Bickel - not Rickel.
 
Sorry once again. I think you are right. I just compared all the text again and it seems that both, Latain and Kurrent handwriting has been used.
So I have to change my mind with the Name. Also „Anton Hans“ is clear Kurrent, the „e“ of Bickel is written in Latain. So the name can be „Bickel“.
It is indeed very confusing with the german handwritings... Because the rest is very clear Kurrent. Example on the 2nd Sheet, right column,
Besitzt die Be-
rechtigung zum
Einj. freiw.
Dienst
 
I‘m German Jaap :wink:
But we don‘t learn these old handwritings at school anymore. It‘s sad that the most germans can‘t read the old Churchbooks or other documents of the 19th century.
It’s not so difficult to learn, I‘m learning it for 1 Year, now (because I wanted to identify the old handwritings in my Pickelhaube), and today I can read the most handwritings if there are enough words to compare. But it seems my Mind still thinks in Latain, otherwise I should have noticed the 2 different alphabets on these documents #-o
But we‘re working on it :bravo:
 
I won't hold it against you, Sandy (wide grin!) - as a Dutchman I'm simply your friendly next door neighbour :D ! I understand even the Germans having problems with the various kinds of old handwriting - I myself am already happy to be able to read the printed Frakturschrift which, when it comes to level of difficulty, is the least difficult of all variations.

Decades ago (more decades than I like to think about) I did a bit of study of Dutch palaeography, mainly sixteenth and seventeenth century because before that most documents were written in some form of Latin which is a language I proudly remember about twenty words of since school :D, but no more than that so even if I could read the words their meaning would remain hidden from me.

But for old writing in Dutch it came in handy, for the exact reasons you mention: reading old church registers and stuff like wills and testaments. Same for you and German documents, including stuff written inside Pickelhauben!

So keep up the good work, it's worth your while! :thumb up:
 
My mother-in-law only wrote in the old script even when she wrote in English - always had a hard time figuring out what she wanted from the store. I'm thankful that we in the US haven't changed our writing in the last 150 years, as I do a lot of work with documents from our Civil War. Even back to the beginnings of the 19th century most documents are readable (past poor spelling and grammar).
 
911car said:
Very interesting information Philippe. Anton Bickel was killed by the end of 1916, most likely wearing a Stahlhelm. I wonder where Pickelhauben were kept during the battle. Did soldiers leave them in some depot before marching to the frontline? Did they keep a steel helmet and a spiked helmet till the end of the war, or was the latter rapidly abandoned? I realize I have a serious lack of knowledge here....
Click to expand...

Bruno, Anton BICKEL died on the 18.8.16. The question "when were the M16 given to the troop" is a very interesting one we have discussed a lot on a few french forum. Sometimes this question is answered in a very few regimental stories. The RS of the GR89 is telling us that the M16 were definitly given to all soldiers of this unit at the middle of August 1916. The RS of the RJR76 is mentioning this was the case for this unit late September 1916. It seems there are no exact rules about it and it is very different from unit to unit. Some few RJR and LJR still wore the Pickelhaube 1917 and 1918! This was especially the case for units who fought on the eastern front. But we can admit that all the active units on the western front wore the M16 at the end of 1916, beginning of 1917.
The first very few M16 (30000) were given in a few sectors to the troops in the first line on the western front, in Verdun, February 1916. This is a ridiculous quantity, just think that 2 Million german soldiers were enlisted!!! This was the first test period. Those first M16 had to stay with the unit in the first trench lines and were passed on to the unit which relieved the other unit. There were so few, that not all soldiers of the unit could have one, only those who were very near to the ennemy in the observation posts. So there was a kind of mixity (M95, M15, Ersatz helmets and M16) during some long months in the year 1916. As this test was positive, the german industry started to produce the M16 in big quantity (a few millions) during spring and summer1916.
I have read the whole JR125 regimental story. It is mentioning that the soldiers of this unit had to remove all green numbers from the Überzug as the shoulder monogramms at the end of October 1916. So we can admit that the M16 was still not completely introduced in this unit at this time. However, we can admit too that most of soldiers in the first lines wore a M16. What about the Pickelhaubes? Where were they? I think the answer is to observe on all the period picts and to read in some regimental stories. When a unit has to move or to march, behind the lines or from the second line to the first line, to relieve another unit, all the soldiers wore the Pickelhaube till the end of 1916. After that, the M16, M17 or M18 were only worn when they were definitly distributed. You will never see a WWI period pict showing a marching troup with Krätzchen or Feldmützen! To the opposite, you can see a lot of original picts of soldiers in the trenches wearing this cloth headgear and also see that some Pickelhauben are put on the parapet or on wood/earth shelves. On some other picts showing the inside of dugouts and bunkers where the soldiers are laying on their fieldbeds or playing cards at a table, some Pickelhauben can also be seen hanging at the wall. So my understanding is that the Pickelhauben which were not needed were stocked in the first lines dugouts during the fire, as the reserve amunition, weapons, handgrenades and other equipment and personal things. When a trench line was taken by the ennemy, all those things changed hands.When the unit was relieved, the soldiers passed on the M16 to their comrads and marched back with their own Pickelhauben.

Philippe
 
Sandmann said:
I’m sorry, hope I may correct you Philippe :? On the top of your Kriegsstammrolle is written „Anton Hans Rickel“. An example for Kurrent „B“ is shown on the 2nd sheet, the 1st letter at the right column (The word is „Besitzt“). It seems your guy Anton Bickel is another one. :(
Click to expand...

Sandy,

I have made the research about BICKEL in three parallel period sources (Regimental Story of the JR125, Verlustlisten and Kriegsstammrollen).
Anton BICKEL is in all those sources mentioned with the same birthplace, same birthdate, same company, same ranks at the same periods, same death date and same death place....Those are things that are much stronger than a "B" that may looks like a "R" :wink:
As I only collect helmets with name of wearer for longer now, I have in between some some little experience with decyphiring this kind of "Sütterlin". I can tell you this is never the same. You can see a lot of variations as it always depend of the individual :wink:

Philippe
 
As a member of the post WW2 boomer generation I would like to point out that a working knowledge of Greek and Latin was required for all educated scholars on both sides of the Atlantic for hundreds of years.These were universal languages that the elite could communicate with. I took Latin in High School in the 1960’s and even in the last school I taught in 3 years ago there was a “Classics” course which taught Latin and Roman culture. English is full of Latin root words as well as French spellings. I also see many common words between English and German even though German was never offered in any of the High Schools that I attended. French is the second language offered across Canada.
 
argonne said:
Sandmann said:
I’m sorry, hope I may correct you Philippe :? On the top of your Kriegsstammrolle is written „Anton Hans Rickel“. An example for Kurrent „B“ is shown on the 2nd sheet, the 1st letter at the right column (The word is „Besitzt“). It seems your guy Anton Bickel is another one. :(
Click to expand...

Sandy,

I have made the research about BICKEL in three parallel period sources (Regimental Story of the JR125, Verlustlisten and Kriegsstammrollen).
Anton BICKEL is in all those sources mentioned with the same birthplace, same birthdate, same company, same ranks at the same periods, same death date and same death place....Those are things that are much stronger than a "B" that may looks like a "R" :wink:
As I only collect helmets with name of wearer for longer now, I have in between some some little experience with decyphiring this kind of "Sütterlin". I can tell you this is never the same. You can see a lot of variations as it always depend of the individual :wink:

Philippe
Click to expand...
I apologize, I was wrong. I already explained my fault 2 posts later. :)
 
b.loree said:
As a member of the post WW2 boomer generation I would like to point out that a working knowledge of Greek and Latin was required for all educated scholars on both sides of the Atlantic for hundreds of years.These were universal languages that the elite could communicate with. I took Latin in High School in the 1960’s and even in the last school I taught in 3 years ago there was a “Classics” course which taught Latin and Roman culture. English is full of Latin root words as well as French spellings. I also see many common words between English and German even though German was never offered in any of the High Schools that I attended. French is the second language offered across Canada.
Click to expand...
Brian, when I write from Latain and Kurrent, I mean the alphabet not the language. Sorry for misunderstanding...
 
I can support Philippi's explanation of wearing the steel helmets, through interviews with vets at least two of whom (IR120 and GR123) went into detail about where and when they had steel helmets and the passing of them from one to another soldier. It wasn't until very late in the war they actually had a helmet of their own. Even then the still wore the Pickelhaube when they were in the rear "around real people". Also, at least in GR 123 they would wear the Feldmützen under the steel helmet. This regiment was required to shave everything ( and I mean everything) before entering the trenches. The Feldmützen kept the helmet from sliding around on their bald heads.
 
aicusv said:
I can support Philippi's explanation of wearing the steel helmets, through interviews with vets at least two of whom (IR120 and GR123) went into detail about where and when they had steel helmets and the passing of them from one to another soldier. It wasn't until very late in the war they actually had a helmet of their own. Even then the still wore the Pickelhaube when they were in the rear "around real people". Also, at least in GR 123 they would wear the Feldmützen under the steel helmet. This regiment was required to shave everything ( and I mean everything) before entering the trenches. The Feldmützen kept the helmet from sliding around on their bald heads.
Click to expand...

Interesting details.
Poor guys...
 
Actually the vet was glad that they had been made to shave. He never had a problem with lice. He did say that this shaving was not done by all units but depended of the individual commanders.

I should also point out that not only did they pass the helmets on to the replacements, but that chin straps were in short supply and they were required to take the strap from their Pickelhaube to use on the steel helmet. Many years back I recall seeing a steel helmet that had a set of cockades (Bav.) on the strap post.
 
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