The Mexican Haubes
- Thread starter henrry
- Start date
Arran- that is a very cool helmet.
James
James
Nacuaa
Active member
This is a beautiful helmet in amazing condition. These are so rare because the men who wore them went on to become commanders in the Revolution (1910-1920) supporting various political factions but because these helmets were so closely associated with the Porfiriato, they were discarded. Mexican military academy cadets continue to wear the uniform for parade but with a shako.
Nacuaa
Active member
poniatowski said:WELCOME and Beautiful Helmets!
I have a distant relative, an architect, living in Mexico Santiago Aspe Poniatowski. (one of the nice things about facebook is finding lost relatives!)
Ron
Here are some photos of the international representatives who attended the 1910 Independence Centennial in Mexico City. Note the large numbers of German officers including an uhlan and a hussar. We should be able to figure out who they were. Maybe someone out there recognizes the other uniforms? A naval contingent also appeared. This alarmed the United States but the government should have been aware of what was going on when Porforio Díaz showed up accompanied by his new Prussian-style body guard for his meeting in El Paso Texas with President Taft three years earlier.
Peter_Suciu
Well-known member
I once joked that I wanted to open a restaurant and call it "Maximillian's Mexico: Home of the Sauerkraut Tacos." Perhaps that wouldn't exactly take off.
Nacuaa
Active member
b.loree said:
Here's the wappen fully extended. Its beautifully executed. The design invokes a Prussian guard plate to some extent, but I like to think that there's some inspiration from the German Imperial Marine plate here as well. The eagle holds a serpent in its mouth and stands on a nopal cactus that grew miraculously from solid volcanic rock. It was the symbol of the founding of Aztec Tenochtitlan or today's Mexico City in 1325. It came into use as the symbol of the Mexican nation shortly after independence from Spain during the 1820's when Mexico began to affect the Aztec heritage as the official identity of the nation. Porfirio Diaz enthusiastically began to promote the ancient heritage in his nation building efforts by sponsoring the excavations of the great pyramids of Teotithuacan at the same time that he was holding these celebratory pageants in Mexico City itself. Here's an Aztec monument that is one of Mexico's most treasured antiquities as it verifies the use of the eagle in the nopal cactus by the Aztecs themselves and may have served as a throne for Motecuhzoma. Díaz founded Mexico's National Museum of Anthropology. He was a brilliant promoter with an outstanding design team that even the Kaiser not to mention two later 20th century German and Italian autocrats might envy. The palace guards appear to be wearing the President Aide de Camp helmet that Henry posted.
Peter_Suciu
Well-known member
Nacuaa said:
That is a fascinating piece. The cockade does look correct.
The problem with these - similar to many helmets - is that it is too easy to add a cockade to a helmet and claim it is original. The helmet is $200 on a good day and the cockade might be $100. But together I could see a dealer offering the helmet for $2000 claiming it to be really rare, and how would you ever know?
Nacuaa
Active member
Peter_Suciu said:
I'll give it a try and get back to you on that.
I purchased the helmet in Oaxaca, Mexico and paid quite a lot for it but it had no certification. This is why Henry says he has never seen a tropical helmet that can be positively attributed. You would need some form of documentation from the officer's descendants for example and the Revolution was just so devastating that items like this would not survive field combat long nor were they kept around much as remembrances. This too was associated with the Porfiriato and most officers began to affect the field cap or a fashionable western stetson style after the initial months of the conflict.
Maple Creek
Active member
Hi Henry and John,
Thanks for your posts. I really enjoyed reading through this discussion thread. I was not aware that there was the 1906 Mexican uniform regulations were published and available. It would be wonderful to see additional pages relevant to pickelhaubes. My previous understanding was that Mexican picklehaubes had not been documented, and at any rate were irregular in their configuration and use. Not so!
Here’s a photo of a helmet that my father bought in a flea market in Mexico City. He lived there briefly in 1958. He said that the seller had two pickelhaubes. He bought the one he liked best, but afterwards regretted not buying both.
My understanding is that this particular piece would have been used by a cavalry officer, but not a general as might be suggested by the feather plume. It looks like the twin of the one in the top right side of the “Mexican Helmets” photo in John’s (Nacuaa) post. It also looks like a match with the image of the mounted Lieutenant Colonel.
Mark D.
Thanks for your posts. I really enjoyed reading through this discussion thread. I was not aware that there was the 1906 Mexican uniform regulations were published and available. It would be wonderful to see additional pages relevant to pickelhaubes. My previous understanding was that Mexican picklehaubes had not been documented, and at any rate were irregular in their configuration and use. Not so!
Here’s a photo of a helmet that my father bought in a flea market in Mexico City. He lived there briefly in 1958. He said that the seller had two pickelhaubes. He bought the one he liked best, but afterwards regretted not buying both.
My understanding is that this particular piece would have been used by a cavalry officer, but not a general as might be suggested by the feather plume. It looks like the twin of the one in the top right side of the “Mexican Helmets” photo in John’s (Nacuaa) post. It also looks like a match with the image of the mounted Lieutenant Colonel.
Mark D.
Nacuaa said:
Nacuaa
Active member
That is an absolutely beautiful helmet Mark! My very favorite. The silver trim is especially attractive. As far as I know, the 1906 regulations were only issued as a now extremely rare publication in which each uniform was printed on a separate card and preserved in a blue cardboard folder. Below appear all the uniforms to be worn with the pickelhaube. However, not all helmets are depicted as you can see from Henry's post of the three metal elite helmets. The use of feathers on helmets is not entirely documented as well. For example, the Puebla museum helmet appears to be the dress helmet of a President's aide that Henry posted, the one on the right of his three. However it sports a white feather plume which I have never seen in photographs, only the white yak or horse hair. Mark, to me your helmet looks like that worn by the Cavalry Colonel in Gala Dress according to the illustration. However, I wonder then, with the German army for comparison, if these helmets may have been worn by generals serving "a la suite" as colonels with bodyguard, cavalry, and other regiments as well? Either way that is a very rare helmet. Both Henry and Arran have posted helmets with black plumes, cruciform spike bases, fluted spike and square visors that Henry identifies as a general in half-dress helmet even though generals are only shown wearing white feather plumes in the 1906 illustrations. On the other hand, I note that the uniform regulations do show a helmet with a black feather plume labeled "chiefs and officials" which refer to individuals holding political appointments with military rank? Interpretation depends on how we translate jefes and officiales. Does that mean generals? The army at large was still issued with the French style shako at this time with a plan for phasing in the pickelhaube for general issue within ten years. This never happened because of the outbreak of the Revolution.
Nacuaa
Active member
Now that Henry, Arran, and Mark have got me going on this, I can’t stop researching because I never had anyone to bounce any ideas off of before. On the left are two helmets on display at the National History Museum in Chapultepec Park in Mexico City. They have the gilt-brass fittings shared by both Prussian and Mexican generals following the identifications posted here by Henry and Arran. On the right, is a standard officer’s helmet with gilt brass fittings with round spike base and round visor from the Puebla Museum of History. However it has a feather plume that we would normally associate with the rank of general, while officers would ordinarily wear a black yak hair plume. It may be a gala headdress for a regimental colonel therefore. There are other alternate configurations as well. Henry has a general officer’s configuration with silver fittings that he identifies as the helmet of the war ministry staff rather than a cavalry helmet. I have seen helmets with a square visor and fluted spike but with a round base for example. One of two that I know of features a black yak hair plume indicating officer’s rank but not a general. I don’t know exactly what these alternate configurations signify. For example is it possible to distinguish the helmet of an artillery officer from that of an infantry officer through these configurations?
Maple Creek
Active member
John, Many thanks for posting the illustrations from Uniformes del Ejercito Mexicano - certainly a rare publication. This is a big help to collectors. It's great to finally get a positive ID on the Mexican cavalry officer's pickelhaube in my father's collection.
For anybody wanting to take a deeper dive into the general subject of pickelhaubes in Latin America, I encourage you to look at the section of "Colonel J's" website:http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/latin_America.html
Mark D.
For anybody wanting to take a deeper dive into the general subject of pickelhaubes in Latin America, I encourage you to look at the section of "Colonel J's" website:http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/latin_America.html
Mark D.
joerookery
Well-known member
This is as close as we get in the article – nothing on the back so far.
Nacuaa
Active member
Henry posted three metal helmets attributed to elite troops and officers. The helmet on the left he identifies as belonging to a lieb unit and may be like the one that appeared at auction last year. It can still be viewed at:
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/19759597_mexican-mounted-presidential-guard-helmet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note the heavy bidding.
The 1906 British Army Study of the Mexican Army describes troops that served as an elite unit as well as officers. Since it appears to have brass fittings, this suggests it is the helmet of a trooper. Henry may be able to confirm this theory though.
However, the photos I have posted show a troop of the Presidential Guard all wearing what appears to be the helmet on the right in Henry's collection with the shorter rear visor and the yak hair plume. So the lieb helmet and the auction helmet are still a bit mysterious. If they are the same, then maybe they were adopted later.
The helmet in the middle appears in many photos of the president attending public affairs. In the accompanying photo, several of the officers appear in the metal pickelhaube without the plume. You can see in Henry's side view that the helmet appears to be a metal version of the leather pickelhaube without the extended rear visor.
By the way, Tomislaw of Spikedhelmets Company has just produced a Mexican Plate in both Brass and Gilt. Its a facsimile copied from an authenticated original and very detailed. Originals are very expensive and many pickelhaube collectors still love the look of the plate whether they collect Mexican pickehaubes or not.
http://spikehelmets.pl/gallery/helmet-plates/other-other/ot-25/92.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/19759597_mexican-mounted-presidential-guard-helmet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note the heavy bidding.
The 1906 British Army Study of the Mexican Army describes troops that served as an elite unit as well as officers. Since it appears to have brass fittings, this suggests it is the helmet of a trooper. Henry may be able to confirm this theory though.
However, the photos I have posted show a troop of the Presidential Guard all wearing what appears to be the helmet on the right in Henry's collection with the shorter rear visor and the yak hair plume. So the lieb helmet and the auction helmet are still a bit mysterious. If they are the same, then maybe they were adopted later.
The helmet in the middle appears in many photos of the president attending public affairs. In the accompanying photo, several of the officers appear in the metal pickelhaube without the plume. You can see in Henry's side view that the helmet appears to be a metal version of the leather pickelhaube without the extended rear visor.
By the way, Tomislaw of Spikedhelmets Company has just produced a Mexican Plate in both Brass and Gilt. Its a facsimile copied from an authenticated original and very detailed. Originals are very expensive and many pickelhaube collectors still love the look of the plate whether they collect Mexican pickehaubes or not.
http://spikehelmets.pl/gallery/helmet-plates/other-other/ot-25/92.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;