The Saxon cockade

joerookery

joerookery

Well-known member
ruhlcockadesalone.jpg

This really started as a question from Francis that I did not have a good answer for. While we have been dodging pinning this baby down maybe it's about time we stop parsing words and figure this entirely out. The questions started with what do the portapee Saxon cockade's look like? What reference book can you see them clearly? I don't know. I do not have one of these midgrade and photographic evidence that I do have seems terribly inconclusive. I have two officer single piece cockades.
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. Did the Saxons have a multiple piece type of cockade for officers? Was there a silver ring on the Fähnriche? What sizes were used? Were there serrated cockade's?

Starting with the serrated cockade I believe they only existed for cavalry. All other troops used a smooth rounded one I believe. This belief comes from an inability to find a single serrated foot troops cockade in a picture. I have seen such cockade's. 45 to 48 mm with serrated edges. I actually sold one to James LeBrasseur years ago. I certainly would not want to cheat in the of my friends or anybody else but at the time I thought they were real. I challenge anyone to come up with a good picture and hope that you do!
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I do not think I have seen any silver rings on any kind of cockade.
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Saxon_Beamte_2.jpg


Sizes seem to vary a lot similar to the spikes of Saxons some of the OYV mounted types seem to have had absolutely huge cockades.

So there you have the start please add your examples and comments. We can do this!
 
I have never seen a 2 piece Saxon officer kokarde in all my years of collecting, only the type you have shown Joe. Regarding the Serrated edge OR's kokarde I have always believed that they were an original expedient for the Saxon M15. There is a nice original looking one the Collectors Guild right now.
 
I want to show some too...

First are a few loose OR and Officers I have, as you can see 3 different types of Saxon OR kokarden.

Other photo's are pics of some of the Officer Kokarden I have on helmets, many little differences, sorry no 2 piece construction, I have never seen one either, not saying they do not exist, just never seen one.

James















 
Great pics James and very instructive. Do you accept serrated Saxon OR's as being legitimate? I see 2 nice examples. In addition, I have never seen a Baden, Wurtt, or Hessen 2 piece officer kokarde. Saxon Officer kokarde set:
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Jan. 2020
 
b.loree said:
Great pics James and very instructive. Do you accept serrated Saxon OR's as being legitimate? I see 2 nice examples.
Click to expand...

Brian- I sure do, I think like you do, they are for M15's and later

James
 
Saxon Jaeger kokarde is on the left below. Serated kokarde on the right is Saxon Schwere Reiter. Two piece officer kokardes exist for Saxon Schwere Reiter. See The German Cavalry from 1871 to 1914 by Herr and Nguyen, pages 294 through 297.

 
Thank you R1 now I have to manhandle the big book off the shelf. That should be informative. The next questions are what does Verlag-Militaria say about the serrated ones? What about Johan, Bruno and Karel? :read2:


OYV
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Ok Joe, here's how I always have thought about it...
All Saxon kokarden are without the serrated edge, except for Kgl. Sächs. Garde-Reiter-Regiment and the Kgl. Sächs. Karabiner-Regiment. They would wear the kokarden with serrated edge. The Saxon Ulanen would also wear the serrated reichs kokarde on the right side of their tschapka.
The non-serrated kokarden for OR and officers are always in one piece, even for a general's helmet.
The serrated kokarden for Saxon cavalry OR's are always made in one piece.
The serrated kokarden for Saxon cavalry officers are usually made in two pieces. The center green ring for the land kokarde and the silver one for the reichs kokarde usually have a fine V shaped pattern.
The serrated reichs kokarde for officers Ulanen are the same as for infantry.
Imo this should be correct, but please don't hold back if it's not. I'm sure others will know more than I do about the subject...

Adler
 
Thank you Karel!

I actually pulled down the old reference books. So I think we have it this way currently:

No such thing as a "single ring" Fähnriche type cockade at all.

cavalry serrated everyone else not so much.

We have no example of a later war seriation style.

I hope there are lots of cards and letters contradicting this but I cannot find examples. Brian and James I think the ball is in your court. Is there a reference book that shows a serrated infantry cockade? :study: :la: :confused2:
 
I think one problem with the cards, Joe, is that so many of them are full length, rather than 'bust' and have covers over the helmets, so it's difficult to tell what the cockades actually looked like. I'm afraid I'm no help with examples either, as the only Saxon M15 I have is with the non-serrated cockades.

:D Ron
 
I understand the difficulty. In addition, most of the pictures were taken in the training base before they shipped out. You don't see a lot of "later war" at home photos. However, not a single example. Nothing in the reference books. A lot of silence from a lot of knowledgeable people. This has been a question that has nagged and we avoided for a long time. So I just trying to force the issue. Where did all the serrated cockades come from? The lack of a Fähnrich cockade makes you wonder who else did not have this option? :coffee2: :lurk: S
 
I have no proof of a serrated Saxon Kokarde being used in period pictures, that would certainly end the discussion. I can comment on the construction of James 2 examples and the one for sale on the Collector Guild, they have been punched out correctly. The originals were punched from the rear side out so there is always that lip around the hole. All the reproductions are punched the opposite ie from the front side. I have not even seen an M15 Saxon in my travels on this side of the Atlantic with any type of kokarde. They are always missing. The one Saxon M15 I did have had to have a serrated edge kokarde purchased to complete it, one that I thought was an original. I do have a Saxon M95 that came with both non serrated orignal kokarden. If some member has a Saxon M15 with original smooth edge kokaden, I would like to see it.
 
Joe,

let me add what the officers' dress regulations of 1912 have to say on the subject:

Leather Helmet:

Approximately 5.5cm diameter with smooth edge.

Metal Helmet:

In general as per the leather helmet, heavily serrated at the edge, approximately 6.5cm diameter.

Shako:

As per the leather helmet, 3.3.cm diameter.

Additionally this from the 1904 Clothing Regulations for NCOs and Soldiers:

Leather Helmet:

4.7 cm with smooth edge.

Metal Helmet:

As per Leather Helmet, heavily serrated at the edge, 6.5 cm diameter.

Shako:

As per the leather helmet, 3.3.cm diameter.

Specifically for Feldwebel/Wachtmeister/Vizefeldwebel/Vizewachtmeister/Fähnrich etc.

is silver plated and has a green circular cutout (Auskehlung).

Regards
Glenn
 
That is wonderful Glenn!so there is no mention of a midgrade cockade for anything other than the shako. I think Brian's analysis is good. But what were those serrated cockades used for?
 
Joe,

none whatsoever, the only other cockades being mentioned being the Reichskokarden and in the case of the Machine Gun Detachments, Verkehrstruppen, Hussars and Ulanen, these being the same size as the leather helmet, i.e. 5.5cm and 4.7cm for officers and NCOs/Soldiers respectively.

Regards
Glenn
 
Glennj said:
Specifically for Feldwebel/Wachtmeister/Vizefeldwebel/Vizewachtmeister/Fähnrich etc.

is silver plated and has a green circular cutout (Auskehlung).

Regards
Glenn
Click to expand...

Hi Gents,
Very interesting, Glenn! :thumb up:

I really would love to see such a saxon cockade with "Auskehlung" for a Portepee Unteroffizier!
Does it has exact the same size as a saxon cockade worn by officers?

And what about cockades worn by Feldwebel in the hanseatic city of Hamburg? I think same size as officer but with a bigger central hole for the M91 side post :-k
Maybe like this one?





This cockade is worn on my RJR76 Mannschafts Haube...But same size as an officer cockade...Thats the reason I am thinking the helmet has belong to a Vize-Feldwebel or Feldwebel :-k

Sorry for being a little out of this topic (about saxon cockade :oops: )

Philippe
 
Philippe that is a good question. I never liked these cockades. Unless all the markings matched up it was just too easy to change the prussian one. But it is a good question. Here is another one. What is that cockade doing on the right side of the helmet?

ps147b by joerookery, on Flickr

ps670 by joerookery, on Flickr

ps84b by joerookery, on Flickr

And then there is this all these of course are JR 75 not JR 76

ps883 by joerookery, on Flickr

ps883b by joerookery, on Flickr
 
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