John Josef
Well-known member
You are 100% correct take it from a friend who is of mixed race that is a Bavarian father and a Prussian mother.
field Gray Bavarian (Feldpriester) Field priest peaked cap
- Thread starter The Infanterist
- Start date
You are 100% correct take it from a friend who is of mixed race that is a Bavarian father and a Prussian mother.
The Infanterist
Member
Do you live in Germany?You are 100% correct take it from a friend who is of mixed race that is a Bavarian father and a Prussian mother.
John Josef
Well-known member
No, I was born the first in the USA my father was sponsored by my aunt his older sister who was a war bride and her husband who was in the 29th Div during WWII. I do have one brother who moved back to Germany and is now married with one child and living and working in Coburg. Also, a few aunts and Uncles left as well as cousins and many second cousins scattered around.
I'm blessed to have lived the American dream that my father wanted so bad for his family. I have to be honest we are thinking of moving to Austria or Bavaria in a few years since I'm now retired.
A picture I had posted a while ago. The high-ranking clergyman had been identified by Sandy as Cardinal Felix von Hartmann (Archbishop of Koeln). Next to him is Rupprecht, Kronprinz of Bavaria, and on his right is a priest with the characteristic peaked cap and cross.
Wandering through this photo is fun (Ueberzug, anyone?).
Wandering through this photo is fun (Ueberzug, anyone?).
John Josef
Well-known member
Great picture, I see at least three more priests maybe four all the way in the back all with the same type of cap and cross.
Jeff R
Well-known member
Great pictures - thanks for sharing. To my eye, this looks like exactly what you'd want to see, especially the fact that the insignia are attached beneath the lining and not poking through it. The material you refer to is part of the construction of the cap stiffener, which helped it retain that nice nice saddle shape. The s-shaped zig-zag metal is typical of the period, as is the thin black cloth tape and heavy burlap type cloth it's sandwiched between. The kokarde attachment hugging the stiffener is also typical.
What's interesting (to me) is that the very thin single-strand thread holding the lining material is intact behind the kokarde. That's often broken or separated in caps where its clear someone was messing with the kokarden. There also don't appear to be additional holes that I can see. In my view, it's entirely possible that your lovely cap is exactly what it looks like it is.
John Josef
Well-known member
JPT
Well-known member
Infanterist's photo was a bit dark, so I just brightened it up so you could see the color.
John Josef
Well-known member
Hey everyone I'm back with some news really glad to see all the discussions about the cap Like some of you requested I will provide pictures of the inside sadly. I cannot show the back of all Cockades because they are sewn behind a layer of fabric But you can see a small strip of Reserve (Papier Brennessel Stoff) material where the Cockade seems to be attached on. i'm not very knowledgeable about the placement of cocakes on caps so like before I would appreciate all the help!
I contacted the local dealer that I bought it from And made him explain what this item is and he offered to take it back at the next convention with a full refund that I'm really glad about Still I need your guys' opinions on what this could be and if it's original or tempered with.
That in Germany in that time period there was three main religious Church groups Catholic, Evangelical and Protestant (katholisch evangelisch protestantisch). Because Martin Luthers (founders of German Protestantism) ideology of Christianity went against most of the Catholic and Evangelical values and symbols. So the material changed. The Protestant church was well established in the kingdom of Bavaria, having many followers.
About the cross he said that it's a Protestant cross rather than a traditional Catholic and Protestant cross.
From my knowledge about these caps I have neverhead about this before maybe some of you can tell me more ?
Thanks to everybody who contributed and helps to discover the truth about this item.
Thanks for the pictures of the inside of your cap. First let me say I wouldn't take that cap back for a refund, regardless it's a nice and rare cap.
Nothing posted has changed my mind or my opinion. Since I'm now alone in my belief of only the bright purple being used by the clergy of all faiths including Rabbis who oddly enough also wore the distinct purple cross on the armband.
I was hoping for some clarification or documentation on the type of cross on your cap, just for my own records.
First you stated that the white enameled cross was the "early war" version and your example was the of a later variety.
Now it's being described as the " Protestant cross" and sadly that's also just not true based on what I've seen over the years.
The way to distinguish between the Protestant and Catholic Clergy of the period is by looking at the type of Cross being worn around their neck. Not sure if you have experience with the differences between the denominations but Catholics venerate the Cross with the figure of christ on it and Lutherans do not. The cross in Lutheran Churches for the most part has no Christ on it unless it was an older former Catholic church that was spared being destroyed during the reformation.
Anyway, I don't want to get sidetracked into a religious discussion, but I've spent countless hours in both types of houses of worship starting before I could even walk or talk.
. Maybe that's why I'm so insistant about that distinct bright purple color used only by clergy back then and even to this day. It's more than just a just a piping color it has specific meaning and significance dating back to the Crucifixion itself, I could go on and on but will spare everyone. Anyway, here are some images of Protestant Clergy during the war wearing the white Enameled Cross. (Thanks, for the photo links)
On left notice the cross differences between Catholic on the right and Protestant left and of course star of David in the center being worn by the Rabbi. Photo also shows both the small and large versions on the enameled cross Catholic is wearing the small enameled cross.
I'm not trying to say anything negative about your cap, I like it, but when I have questions, I really like to have answers that can be documented and proven beyond doubt.
Since the story about the cross has changed again and the newest explanation also just isn't factual, I'm sure you can understand my hesitation to just except that type of cross into my records going forward not that I wouldn't love to.
This is a subject that is really dear to me and of great interest. I've been looking through hundreds of items in my collection to hopefully be able to photo match this type of cross but sadly havent been able to do so.
I'm not saying that I'm an expert on anything, but I've been really interested in the subject for a very long time and just want to get it right.
Someone also ask, "Was it personal preference to wear either the field cap or the M1913 hat? (Slouch hat).
That is a great question I had initially thought that the Slouch hat was worn only by Protestant Clergy, but I have since found several photos of Catholic Priest wearing them as well.
I have no documentation on the rules that address this specific issue, but you have to go with what you have so photos have convinced me it could be worn by both Faiths. I also thought years ago that maybe the slouch hat was worn depending on the location in the field of operations but that also hasn't held up over the years having seen them being worn in Europe.
Sorry for the long post, I'm certainly not trying to argue or disagree with anyone and since I'm all alone with my position it's not a good place to be.
Maybe I should say nice cap and be quiet.Also, I'm aways actively looking for items related to the Clergy of all faiths serving in Germany or Austria during WWI if anyone would have anything that they would like to move on to a good home I'm very interested. Who knows you may have something that doesn't fit with your main collecting interest just collecting dust.
MFG John Josef
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Thanks for the pictures of the inside of your cap. First let me say I wouldn't take that cap back for a refund, regardless it's a nice and rare cap.
Nothing posted has changed my mind or my opinion. Since I'm now alone in my belief of only the bright purple being used by the clergy of all faiths including Rabbis who oddly enough also wore the distinct purple cross on the armband.
View attachment 73208
I was hoping for some clarification or documentation on the type of cross on your cap, just for my own records.
First you stated that the white enameled cross was the "early war" version and your example was the of a later variety.
Now it's being described as the " Protestant cross" and sadly that's also just not true based on what I've seen over the years.
The way to distinguish between the Protestant and Catholic Clergy of the period is by looking at the type of Cross being worn around their neck. Not sure if you have experience with the differences between the denominations but Catholics venerate the Cross with the figure of christ on it and Lutherans do not. The cross in Lutheran Churches for the most part has no Christ on it unless it was an older former Catholic church that was spared being destroyed during the reformation.
Anyway, I don't want to get sidetracked into a religious discussion, but I've spent countless hours in both types of houses of worship starting before I could even walk or talk.
Anyway, here are some images of Protestant Clergy during the war wearing the white Enameled Cross. (Thanks, for the photo links)
View attachment 73211
On left notice the cross differences between Catholic on the right and Protestant left and of course star of David in the center being worn by the Rabbi. Photo also shows both the small and large versions on the enameled cross Catholic is wearing the small enameled cross.
View attachment 73212
View attachment 73214
I'm not trying to say anything negative about your cap, I like it, but when I have questions, I really like to have answers that can be documented and proven beyond doubt.
Interesting facts and thoughts, John Josef. I was not aware of the difference in army hat and chest crosses between Catholic and Reformed churches. In fact I assumed that the vast majority of ministers in German armies belonged to the latter communion.
The Infanterist
Member
Thanks for the pictures of the inside of your cap. First let me say I wouldn't take that cap back for a refund, regardless it's a nice and rare cap.
Nothing posted has changed my mind or my opinion. Since I'm now alone in my belief of only the bright purple being used by the clergy of all faiths including Rabbis who oddly enough also wore the distinct purple cross on the armband.
View attachment 73208
I was hoping for some clarification or documentation on the type of cross on your cap, just for my own records.
First you stated that the white enameled cross was the "early war" version and your example was the of a later variety.
Now it's being described as the " Protestant cross" and sadly that's also just not true based on what I've seen over the years.
The way to distinguish between the Protestant and Catholic Clergy of the period is by looking at the type of Cross being worn around their neck. Not sure if you have experience with the differences between the denominations but Catholics venerate the Cross with the figure of christ on it and Lutherans do not. The cross in Lutheran Churches for the most part has no Christ on it unless it was an older former Catholic church that was spared being destroyed during the reformation.
Anyway, I don't want to get sidetracked into a religious discussion, but I've spent countless hours in both types of houses of worship starting before I could even walk or talk.
Anyway, here are some images of Protestant Clergy during the war wearing the white Enameled Cross. (Thanks, for the photo links)
View attachment 73211
On left notice the cross differences between Catholic on the right and Protestant left and of course star of David in the center being worn by the Rabbi. Photo also shows both the small and large versions on the enameled cross Catholic is wearing the small enameled cross.
View attachment 73212
View attachment 73214
I'm not trying to say anything negative about your cap, I like it, but when I have questions, I really like to have answers that can be documented and proven beyond doubt.
Since the story about the cross has changed again and the newest explanation also just isn't factual, I'm sure you can understand my hesitation to just except that type of cross into my records going forward not that I wouldn't love to.
This is a subject that is really dear to me and of great interest. I've been looking through hundreds of items in my collection to hopefully be able to photo match this type of cross but sadly havent been able to do so.
I'm not saying that I'm an expert on anything, but I've been really interested in the subject for a very long time and just want to get it right.
Someone also ask, "Was it personal preference to wear either the field cap or the M1913 hat? (Slouch hat).
That is a great question I had initially thought that the Slouch hat was worn only by Protestant Clergy, but I have since found several photos of Catholic Priest wearing them as well.
I have no documentation on the rules that address this specific issue, but you have to go with what you have so photos have convinced me it could be worn by both Faiths. I also thought years ago that maybe the slouch hat was worn depending on the location in the field of operations but that also hasn't held up over the years having seen them being worn in Europe.
Sorry for the long post, I'm certainly not trying to argue or disagree with anyone and since I'm all alone with my position it's not a good place to be.
Also, I'm aways actively looking for items related to the Clergy of all faiths serving in Germany or Austria during WWI if anyone would have anything that they would like to move on to a good home I'm very interested. Who knows you may have something that doesn't fit with your main collecting interest just collecting dust.
MFG John Josef
Thanks for your opinion… I'm going to keep it fast since at the moment I'm quite sick. The clams of the Protestant Church cross wasn't made by me but was a speculation by the dealer. Like I said at the end of my post I have only basic knowledge on this topic and rely mainly on other like you for people's opinion… Thank for your amazing and detailed postThanks for the pictures of the inside of your cap. First let me say I wouldn't take that cap back for a refund, regardless it's a nice and rare cap.
Nothing posted has changed my mind or my opinion. Since I'm now alone in my belief of only the bright purple being used by the clergy of all faiths including Rabbis who oddly enough also wore the distinct purple cross on the armband.
View attachment 73208
I was hoping for some clarification or documentation on the type of cross on your cap, just for my own records.
First you stated that the white enameled cross was the "early war" version and your example was the of a later variety.
Now it's being described as the " Protestant cross" and sadly that's also just not true based on what I've seen over the years.
The way to distinguish between the Protestant and Catholic Clergy of the period is by looking at the type of Cross being worn around their neck. Not sure if you have experience with the differences between the denominations but Catholics venerate the Cross with the figure of christ on it and Lutherans do not. The cross in Lutheran Churches for the most part has no Christ on it unless it was an older former Catholic church that was spared being destroyed during the reformation.
Anyway, I don't want to get sidetracked into a religious discussion, but I've spent countless hours in both types of houses of worship starting before I could even walk or talk.
Anyway, here are some images of Protestant Clergy during the war wearing the white Enameled Cross. (Thanks, for the photo links)
View attachment 73211
On left notice the cross differences between Catholic on the right and Protestant left and of course star of David in the center being worn by the Rabbi. Photo also shows both the small and large versions on the enameled cross Catholic is wearing the small enameled cross.
View attachment 73212
View attachment 73214
I'm not trying to say anything negative about your cap, I like it, but when I have questions, I really like to have answers that can be documented and proven beyond doubt.
Since the story about the cross has changed again and the newest explanation also just isn't factual, I'm sure you can understand my hesitation to just except that type of cross into my records going forward not that I wouldn't love to.
This is a subject that is really dear to me and of great interest. I've been looking through hundreds of items in my collection to hopefully be able to photo match this type of cross but sadly havent been able to do so.
I'm not saying that I'm an expert on anything, but I've been really interested in the subject for a very long time and just want to get it right.
Someone also ask, "Was it personal preference to wear either the field cap or the M1913 hat? (Slouch hat).
That is a great question I had initially thought that the Slouch hat was worn only by Protestant Clergy, but I have since found several photos of Catholic Priest wearing them as well.
I have no documentation on the rules that address this specific issue, but you have to go with what you have so photos have convinced me it could be worn by both Faiths. I also thought years ago that maybe the slouch hat was worn depending on the location in the field of operations but that also hasn't held up over the years having seen them being worn in Europe.
Sorry for the long post, I'm certainly not trying to argue or disagree with anyone and since I'm all alone with my position it's not a good place to be.
Also, I'm aways actively looking for items related to the Clergy of all faiths serving in Germany or Austria during WWI if anyone would have anything that they would like to move on to a good home I'm very interested. Who knows you may have something that doesn't fit with your main collecting interest just collecting dust.
MFG John Josef
and I'm at this time really intrigued on what this cap could be and all the help is appreciated.
John Josef
Well-known member
Thanks for your opinion… I'm going to keep it fast since at the moment I'm quite sick. The clams of the Protestant Church cross wasn't made by me but was a speculation by the dealer. Like I said at the end of my post I have only basic knowledge on this topic and rely mainly on other like you for people's opinion… Thank for your amazing and detailed post
Your very welcome there is no definitive source on the subject that I'm aware so that's why when someone says something different from what I've observed over the years I get very interested in knowing the source.
Like I said I would definitely keep the cap regardless of what others myself included think it could be.
We all agree that color combination is very rare. Congratulations
MFG John Josef
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Not alone John. These eyes see a Bavarian Train Schirmmütze in kaliblau. The cap being discussed is a beautiful visor in either interpretation.
Yes I made these drawings, but I had an appropriate cap sitting on my lap to match colours as best I could.
The photos I took in Germany at as exhibition showed the very light purple of the clergy. It was vibrant purpurrot.
Jeff R
Well-known member
Welp, now I am coming around to your interpretation Tony. JPT inspired me to fiddle with some of the images here in a photo editor, and massively increasing color saturation only seems to make it more blue (rather than putting it on the red scale). It would be interesting to see examples of wartime Train, this cap, and legit clergy caps in the same lighting and in the same place.
As you say, though - a beautiful cap regardless.
Train Schirmmütze and Krätzchen both in kaliblau
John Josef
Well-known member
The Infanterist
Member
John Josef
Well-known member
Hi Jeff,
Happy to see you are coming around.
Really makes me feel like I don't need to go to the optometrist. 
If you go back and look at my first post in this thread from last week, you will see I tried to show all three of what you'd like to see.
This cap, and Original Bavarian Priest cap, and A Bavarian Train cap the best I could. (similar lighting)
The first picture in my post shows a wartime Bavarian train cap and the bright purple used by the clergy which is the same color as the armbands.
MFG John Josef
