10th Jager battalion plate
- Thread starter Leone
- Start date
pointystuff
Active member
It does not appear to be a copper (galvano) copy.
However, shouldn't the screw posts on the back be cut at an angle (with nippers)?
However, shouldn't the screw posts on the back be cut at an angle (with nippers)?
joerookery
Well-known member
They appear to me to be machined. Long skinny – I think this is one of those postwar helmet accessories. I have no proof of this but you see perfectly good helmets with machined screw posts.
I have a Prussian officer wappen...pics to come, which has the exact same screw posts...fine threading, extra long and machined pointed ends (not clipped off). I also had an OR Garde, tschapka wappen with the same bolts. I naturally consulted with Tony and he confirmed that they are legitimate. I do not believe they are...post war, they are unusual but as we all know, there was no standardization of parts/fittings despite the submission of official "prope" helmes for government approval. If anything, I believe that we are looking at wappen from private purchase helmets where literally....anything goes providing the outside of the helme looks regulation. Oddly enough, 3 days ago I took that officer wappen into a local store specializing in bolts, screws and fasteners, my wappen has no nuts for the posts. It turns out, the threading is 36 threads per inch and they had nothing that fine which would work for my wappen.
I would point out that on this ebay one, we have proper one nut and washer.
I would point out that on this ebay one, we have proper one nut and washer.
edwin
Active member
Leone said:edwin said:The lack of detail on the backside of this wappen is a red flag to me but perhaps I am wrong here
Regards,
Edwin
Hello Edwin! I am sorry for my english... Could you explain what do You mean "The lack of detail on the backside"???
I am certainly no expert and I may been wrong but I have seen several repro wappens here that typically don't show the same level of detail on the backside when compared with an authentic wappen. In other words the front side may look similar to an authentic wappen but the backside does not. I am sure that other forum members will provide additional insights.
Regards,
Edwin
pointystuff
Active member
Is it reasonable to theorize that the German manufacturers who used the clipped-off threaded posts were simply following a very old style of workmanship...possibly in the interest of saving money?
It looks like the end that's soldered to the plate is not split and flattened into a "T" shape, either.
It looks like the end that's soldered to the plate is not split and flattened into a "T" shape, either.
joerookery
Well-known member
Legitimate versus postwar – are the postwar one's legitimate? I think so and it would all be private purchase. So Brian are you saying that these are prewar/mid war?
I have no clue...mid, pre post?? I just think it is another manufacturing anomaly which we have encountered many times. FYI...the screw posts on the Prussian Officer wappen mentioned before are T shaped as they should be on originals. Will post pics tomorrow, just got back home.
Adler
New member
For me this plate is a reproduction. Here are the reasons why I think so:
- not enough detail at the back
- not enough detail at the front
- strange threaded posts
- sloppy text on bandeau, not well centered
- sloppy text on bandeau, distance between letters is different
- an officer's helmet plate without mercury guilding?
- the circular bandeau isn't really a circle (as it should be)
Taking all these points together makes it hard to believe that this plate would be a real one...
Oh, and here's a picture to compare...
Adler
- not enough detail at the back
- not enough detail at the front
- strange threaded posts
- sloppy text on bandeau, not well centered
- sloppy text on bandeau, distance between letters is different
- an officer's helmet plate without mercury guilding?
- the circular bandeau isn't really a circle (as it should be)
Taking all these points together makes it hard to believe that this plate would be a real one...
Oh, and here's a picture to compare...
Adler
WWI Collector
New member
All officer front plates had long threaded posts like this when they were made. When the helmet was put together they were clipped off with metal snips. The ebay plate has never been on a shako. That is in my opinion, a no-question original, just not very good quality. The gilding was also poor quality and the plate has gone to flat gold color. This is very common on officer front plates. Adler comparing your beautiful near-mint one to the ebay one is like comparing a Dodge Charger to a Kia.
joerookery
Well-known member
This is difficult to reconcile. Longer yes but machined? I'm not so sure.
There is a fun little article on this in the stickies – http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
WWI Collector
New member
Sorry, I hit "submit" too quickly. I should have added that the posts have clearly been replaced. No split-bottom and the soldering is far too sloppy. No way that is period. But I still think that plate is a good one. Copies are just not made like that.
Hello all.
Thank you for your opinions. Actually I'm afraid about bandeau, because more easier to copy bandeau and to solder it to original plate after what this plate will be more expensive.
I just want to say that I have few offizier plates with no split-bottom posts wich looks like not resoldered (except ulhan). Maybe it means that these plates is postwar?
And at now to get new split-bottom posts very easy =>
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/130790308801?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you for your opinions. Actually I'm afraid about bandeau, because more easier to copy bandeau and to solder it to original plate after what this plate will be more expensive.
I just want to say that I have few offizier plates with no split-bottom posts wich looks like not resoldered (except ulhan). Maybe it means that these plates is postwar?
And at now to get new split-bottom posts very easy =>
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/130790308801?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
poniatowski
Well-known member
Just a comment, but original wappen can have original hardware that has been re-soldered, as would be the case if the loop or screw came loose. interesting discussion! 
I must admit that the bandeau looks strange to me, but I don't have any originals to compare it to.
Ron
I must admit that the bandeau looks strange to me, but I don't have any originals to compare it to. Ron
Ok, as promised, here are the fotos of my Prussian Officer wappen with "unusual" screw posts. I wish I still had the Garde Ulan OR's wappen with similar posts. I sold it along with the tschapka style vulcan fibre shell that it came with. I think Ron bought it off me on Ebay?? Here goes:
Ok......now once again, into the breach/discussion.......There is still lots of "gilt wash" on this wappen, although not of the superbe quality of Adler's shako wappen. The posts are obviously "Unusual" but they are "T" shaped and the solder is globed on as with most originals. The length of these posts including the horizontal base is 1.3 cm, 7/8" approx, much longer than usual and with fine threads as shown. I would remind everyone, that we know that there were various models of the same helmet available from manufacturers depending upon what one could afford. Adlers' shako obviously is of highest quality, fantastic gilt/frosting, top quality and I would bet that the liner is perhaps a step up in quality also. The chin scale gilding is amazing!
There were comments about the lack of detail on this Ebay shako wappen, which I did not really see. Does my wappen lack detail on the back? I don't think so...plus there is even more gilt wash there. I believe my wappen to be an economy officer version as I have OR infantry and Garde wappen that have a similar "washes" on them. It is NOT the same as Adler's which I would describe as "frosted". Frosted mercury gilt wappen scream quality when you see them! Adler's wappen was obviously smaller/finer than the Ebay one. Lack of detail could be explained by....a late war stamping when dies were not as sharp as when new.
All I am saying, is that there are many variables/things which could account for the questions that were raised in this post.
BUT....it is a great discussion!
Ok......now once again, into the breach/discussion.......There is still lots of "gilt wash" on this wappen, although not of the superbe quality of Adler's shako wappen. The posts are obviously "Unusual" but they are "T" shaped and the solder is globed on as with most originals. The length of these posts including the horizontal base is 1.3 cm, 7/8" approx, much longer than usual and with fine threads as shown. I would remind everyone, that we know that there were various models of the same helmet available from manufacturers depending upon what one could afford. Adlers' shako obviously is of highest quality, fantastic gilt/frosting, top quality and I would bet that the liner is perhaps a step up in quality also. The chin scale gilding is amazing!
There were comments about the lack of detail on this Ebay shako wappen, which I did not really see. Does my wappen lack detail on the back? I don't think so...plus there is even more gilt wash there. I believe my wappen to be an economy officer version as I have OR infantry and Garde wappen that have a similar "washes" on them. It is NOT the same as Adler's which I would describe as "frosted". Frosted mercury gilt wappen scream quality when you see them! Adler's wappen was obviously smaller/finer than the Ebay one. Lack of detail could be explained by....a late war stamping when dies were not as sharp as when new.
All I am saying, is that there are many variables/things which could account for the questions that were raised in this post.
BUT....it is a great discussion!
joerookery
Well-known member
It's Christmas time! :santa:
joerookery
Well-known member
The last picture is perfect! It really shows what I'm talking about. I vote for this to be postwar – but I would still consider it original. http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9336" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;